Primer=accuracy???

[DynoDan1]

Hi,
Met a guy who said he's been reloading for over 40 years at my local range the other day. I've been reloading for a little over a year. I make my own primers due to the scarcity and cost of them nowadays. I was having a fairly typical day of 1MOA groups @ 100 yards, give or take. He said the reason I wasn't shooting sub-MOA was my primers. I then shot a group of 5 rounds through one hole...almost! I think primers play an integral role but my question is how critical? I regularly shoot around 1MOA @100 yards as long as I haven't screwed something up during my reloading.
Rifle: Savage .308 Long Range Hunter bolt action
Brass: 7.62x51mm Lake City ( Brass only)
Primer: Homemade (Prime All)
Bullets: 168gr FMJBT/150gr. FMJBT (the cheap stuff found on Ammoseek.com)
Powder: Accurate 2460/4064
IMR3031
Grains: Nominally 40.0 gr. +/-1.0gr. (40.0 grains seems to work best regardless of powder used)

I both full length resize and neck size depending on number of firings. Neck sizing seems to give me the best results...usually.
Thanks in advance
DynoDan1

 

[Nature Boy]

Primers do matter.

To put it in very simplified terms, I conduct load development using a 3 step process.

1. Find the accuracy node with right powder charge
2. Adjust the bullet seating depth
3. Find the primer type that shoots the best.

This has worked for me across multiple calibers and rifles, both for hunting and competition loads.

 

[243winxb]

Primer: Homemade (Prime All)

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079

Changing from standard to magnum, may make a difference.

 

[DynoDan1]

Hmm...interesting. Thanks for the info.
Now to throw a monkey wrench into all this.
I have been "making" my own primers for the last 6 months or so. Actually I'm just re-using formerly fired primers. The cup and anvils.
I use a compound of 4 different powders combined into 1 and fill the primer cup with this mix as full as it'll allow. There's actually quite a bit of prep work that needs to be done to the cups and powder mix but I'll save that info for a different thread. Any who, I don't use a chronograph because I'm not sure what it would tell me other than velocity and I would have no clue as to what to do about velocity if needed or why. What I do know is that the primers "feel" more powerful...I think. And I often get outstanding results with my "homemade" primers, about the same as I got when I was using CCI 200 LRP's
I look at my groups and that is my method of determining powder charge, bullet seating depth, shoulder bump, etc.
Oh, and perhaps this is important as well. I've never had a factory primer fail. I have, on the other hand, had at one point about an 80% FTF rate with my homemade primers but have since figured out the problem and now have about a 96% success rate. All this and I almost always shoot at least 1MOA @ 100 yards, sometimes not. My goal, however unrealistic it may be, is to shoot 5 rounds through one hole consistently, 8 out of 10 times...maybe? I have done this 5 maybe 6 times out of thousands and thousands of rounds put down range. Until large rifle primers become available once again at a reasonable cost, I'll be making my own primers.

 

[edwardware]

Yes, primers matter, but on the other hand 1MOA is nothing to sneeze at. The greater part of rifle marksmanship can be learned with a 1MOA setup.

 

[DynoDan1]

Sooo... I'm doing okay?
I'm pretty new at this and it's been one hell of a learning curve and quite expensive at that.
Broke my first press due to a stuck case. Actually beat the crap out of it due to frustration and anger at constantly
having cases get stuck.
Haven't had a stuck case in months now!

Until the current situation improves I'm pretty much stuck with making my own primers. I've had fantastic and dismal results so far.

 

[bluejay75]

A set of Lee scoops, a 15 dollar Amazon scale and a trickler will get your powder variances down in powder charges by quite a bit. What powder measure are you using? Straight wall makes better end of times cases. They last longer and use less powder. FYI.

Edit to your comment below:
I read it wrong then. You said your charges were +\- 1.0.
I thought you were continuing with your end of times theme and eyeballing it. Lol.
41 grains of 3031 is a sub moa load in most of my 308s with 165s. As is 44 of A4064 with 168s. But that might be a bit much for your barrel length.

 

[Jim Watson]

Your limiting factor may be the FMJ bullets. Most target bullets are hollow point or open point so that the jacket covers the base flat and square.

But a hundred factory primers ought not to break you, run the comparison and YOU tell US.

 

[DynoDan1]

I shoot .308 Winchester.
168gr. or 150 gr. FMJBT
I have several digital scales, none are high dollar but seem to work well.
I have one avoirdupois scale.
I've compared all of them to one another using precision weights and they all are within 0.05 grs. verified by the calibration dept. at work.
I keep any variances to 0.10 grains for every round as I'm probably clinically OCD and measure everything constantly.

 

[DynoDan1]

Your limiting factor may be the FMJ bullets. Most target bullets are hollow point or open point so that the jacket covers the base flat and square.

But a hundred factory primers ought not to break you, run the comparison and YOU tell US.

Yeah, I've heard that top shooters use the bullets you mention. I've shot quite a few of those and they indeed seem to perform quite well. As I'm on a budget, I limit myself to bullets I can find and afford, usually whatever's on sale/cheapest on Ammoseek. I have bought the best of the best, complete cartridges and just the bullets for comparison and have found little difference between the best and my reloads. A tad better...maybe?
Tell me where I can buy just 100 factory primers (for a reasonable price). None nowhere within 100 miles of my place, primers of any kind!!

 

[stillquietvoice]

Broke my first press due to a stuck case. Actually beat the crap out of it due to frustration and anger at constantly
having cases get stuck.
Haven't had a stuck case in months now!

I've had more stuck cases this past year than in the past 30, mostly due to case lube, ran out of paste lube and bought a dry, graphite type, that's when they started sticking. Went back to rcbs case lube until I found hornandy unique paste lube.

To answer your original question primers can make a huge difference, win lrp in my 7mm08 shot bug holes, cci, fed opened up the groups some, still moa, but larger.

 

[DynoDan1]

I've had more stuck cases this past year than in the past 30, mostly due to case lube, ran out of paste lube and bought a dry, graphite type, that's when they started sticking. Went back to rcbs case lube until I found hornandy unique paste lube.

To answer your original question primers can make a huge difference, win lrp in my 7mm08 shot bug holes, cci, fed opened up the groups some, still moa, but larger.

HA! That's the same lube I use and yes, it solved all my issues when resizing!!!
Okay, so primers can make a difference! Good to know. All I've ever used was CCI 200. Well almost. I've used Federal and some other primers but only when the store was out of stock on CCI's. No particular reason, CCI's just what I started with.
As I've said, I'm making my own primers so I can't really do a comparison test. Not until factory primers become more available and reasonably priced.
I don't measure how much primer powder I place in the cup, I just fill the cup, tamp (squish) it down until it won't take anymore powder. Probably makes it a magnum primer(?). I've had a few go off while making them and yes it's a really really big (loud) bang. Had a few go off while seating them in the brass too!! And that's a big bang too!! I use acetone now!!! Ask me why!

 

[bullseye308]

Get a bottle of ISO HEET(red one) and some liquid lanolin and pour the ISO(12 ounces) in a spray bottle then add one ounce of lanolin, shake well, and lightly mist your brass in a gallon ziplock. Shake it around then mist it again Allow 5-10 minutes for the alcohol to flash off and your cases are lubed. You should not stick another case again, and it is easy to clean off afterwards.

Wish you were close, I’d give you a couple hundred primers, I don’t have any need of large rifle anymore.

 

[DynoDan1]

A set of Lee scoops, a 15 dollar Amazon scale and a trickler will get your powder variances down in powder charges by quite a bit. What powder measure are you using? Straight wall makes better end of times cases. They last longer and use less powder. FYI.

Edit to your comment below:
I read it wrong then. You said your charges were +\- 1.0.
I thought you were continuing with your end of times theme and eyeballing it. Lol.
41 grains of 3031 is a sub moa load in most of my 308s with 165s. As is 44 of A4064 with 168s. But that might be a bit much for your barrel length.

I have to admit that from early on until recently I just loaded up some ammo and just went shooting. No documentation, no logic, just shot a lot. And I mean
A LOT!!! I found that 40.0 grains of Accurate 2460 +/-0.2 worked pretty well with my rifle and that was what I shot until I emptied my 2 8# jugs a few months back. A buddy gave me some Accurate 4064 and that's when I started to document everything, because a pound of powder lasts me at best a month. And since I bought 2#'s of IMR 3031 for the 1st time I documented that as well. Your #'s seem to be right on par with my findings. Good to know.

 

[DynoDan1]

Get a bottle of ISO HEET(red one) and some liquid lanolin and pour the ISO(12 ounces) in a spray bottle then add one ounce of lanolin, shake well, and lightly mist your brass in a gallon ziplock. Shake it around then mist it again Allow 5-10 minutes for the alcohol to flash off and your cases are lubed. You should not stick another case again, and it is easy to clean off afterwards.

Wish you were close, I’d give you a couple hundred primers, I don’t have any need of large rifle anymore.

Hmm... I'm filling my truck up as I type!!!
I've actually done what you did with the lanolin. It worked very well but around here lanolin must be liquid gold. $15+ for an 11.5oz bottle!!
The Hornady Unique lube has proven to be an excellent case lube. My cases don't come anywhere near getting stuck and this tub I got will last for decades..well maybe a year more likely!.

 

[Varminterror]

Primers do make a difference, but given a load which is well developed with the given primer, primers don’t turn a 1moa group into one hole, and vice versa. Primers are a “tiny knob” on the dash, fine tuning, not a “big knob” which promotes macro scale influences.

 

[bullseye308]

Hmm... I'm filling my truck up as I type!!!
I've actually done what you did with the lanolin. It worked very well but around here lanolin must be liquid gold. $15+ for an 11.5oz bottle!!
The Hornady Unique lube has proven to be an excellent case lube. My cases don't come anywhere near getting stuck and this tub I got will last for decades..well maybe a year more likely!.

Lanolin is commonly used for nursing mothers to put on their nipples to prevent chapping. Check Walmart, Kroger, Cvs, etc or Amazon or evilbay for it. A little goes a long way. When I’m looking for something specific I find out the different uses for it and it expands my search parameters. Knowing it is used for nursing, I found it at a discount store in the maternity section for half of what the same thing was in a different section of the same store.

 

[DynoDan1]

Primers do make a difference, but given a load which is well developed with the given primer, primers don’t turn a 1moa group into one hole, and vice versa. Primers are a “tiny knob” on the dash, fine tuning, not a “big knob” which promotes macro scale influences.

Ah!!! Good to know. I'm OCD enough to start fiddle farting with my primers if it made THE difference. I'm fairly happy with the results I'm currently getting. I just gotta figure out how to make my groups more consistent. I've used Accurate 2460 sooo much that after 1000's and 1000's of rounds I stumbled upon a load that seems to work very well for my rifle. I don't want to start all over with my homemade primer concoction if I don't have to. There's a lot of prepping that goes into reusing primers, more so than the brass cartridge in my opinion. Check out Aardvarkreloading.com

 

[DynoDan1]

Lanolin is commonly used for nursing mothers to put on their nipples to prevent chapping. Check Walmart, Kroger, Cvs, etc or Amazon or evilbay for it. A little goes a long way. When I’m looking for something specific I find out the different uses for it and it expands my search parameters. Knowing it is used for nursing, I found it at a discount store in the maternity section for half of what the same thing was in a different section of the same store.

Thanks. When I run out of Hornady Unique Case lube I'll try it out again. In my town there seems to be only a couple places that have pure lanolin and they want lotsa $$$ for it. When I was using lanolin I was told to mix it with 99.99% alcohol with a 1:8 ratio(?). Worked great for over 10,000 rounds but eventually ran out of it and when I went back to the store to get more they were out. A buddy said to try the Hornady lube and it works amazingly.

 

[horseman1]

"A buddy said to try the Hornady lube and it works amazingly." And it works well on your boots too!

 

[Slamfire]

I think primers are in the two to five percent range in terms of having an affect on accuracy. Assuming everything is mechanically correct with the weapon and case. In my experience, and others, primers have a subtle affect on accuracy, and depending on the shooting you do, you may not actually see the influence of primers on group size, because other errors are greater.

Primers, and primer sensitivity do have great affects on function. If the ignition energy is marginal, a less sensitive primer will give greater velocity spreads, to no ignition at all. You can see in this chart, that primer ignition varies by energy input. At some levels, it is probabilistic, at others, 100% ignition. Red means bang.



If the weapon hits the primer off center



misfires can happen, the further from center, the more likely it is that the primer will not ignite. There is a sweet spot centered around the tip of the anvil, the further the hit is from the tip, the less likely the primer is to ignite. And, that will make a difference on paper, as combustion will be weaker for off center hits.





I am going to claim that cartridge design has an affect on combustion. I have several 35 Whelens that have been troublesome and given misfires. A contributor to ignition problems has been the shallow shoulder of the 35 Whelen. I am of the opinion that case rigidity is important in maximizing the amount of firing pin energy delivered to the primer. A non rigid case will absorb some of that firing pin energy, and thus the energy to the primer will be reduced by the amount of energy dissipated in crushing the case. The 35 Whelen is an excellent example of this, due to its shallow shoulder. I think firing pin hits move the slight shoulder of the 35 Whelen. I set up my dies so the shoulder is in contact, or a slight crush fit in the chamber. And, I use Federals, the most sensitive primers around. My Ruger #1 in 35 Whelen was particularly prone to misfires, until I sent it back to Ruger, who adjusted the off center firing pin hits. Now it reliably goes bang. Primers require a very fast and hard hit for constancy.

The current trend for cartridges is steep shoulders, and a lot of shoulder. I believe that the rigidity of the case, during the firing pin strike, is a contributor to consistent ignition. And it is unfair to blame the primer for manufacturing defects, such as weak ignition systems, and off center firing pin hits.

In extreme cold, magnum primers may be needed to ignite powders, particularly ball powders.

So, primers make a difference on accuracy and function reliability, but so does the energy of the ignition system, the cartridge design, and the mechanical correctness of the ignition system.

 

[DynoDan1]

"A buddy said to try the Hornady lube and it works amazingly." And it works well on your boots too!

Yes it does! I used something similar to it on my baseball glove when I was a kid as well!!
(I think you were the buddy, no?)

 

[buck460XVR]

Like with anything with accuracy, it comes down to consistency. So called "match" primers are made in the same factory, with the same tools, and the same components. Difference is they are generally made by more experienced employees. If your homemade primers are more consistent than OTC primers, than your loads with them could be more accurate than when made with OTC primers and/or vice versa..

 

[DynoDan1]

Now this is the kind of info I'm looking for!
The guy at the range was polite and respectful but was adamant that the reason I wasn't shooting 1/4" MOA was my primers, from both the factory Lake City "drop down" brass and my homemade primers was because the primers from both of them are thicker and harder and designed for AR style guns. Also that the firing pin impact on the primers from my rifle was too small and not deep enough. I've been shooting Lake City ammo up the wazoo over the last 2 1/2 years and never had any real issues with it. I've been making my own primers for about 4-6 months and until recently, with some guidance and help from Horseman1, I am now getting just over 96.5% success rate from them. The real reason, I believe, I'm not shooting 1/4" MOA is...ME!!!

 

[DynoDan1]

Like with anything with accuracy, it comes down to consistency. So called "match" primers are made in the same factory, with the same tools, and the same components. Difference is they are generally made by more experienced employees. If your homemade primers are more consistent than OTC primers, than your loads with them could be more accurate than when made with OTC primers and/or vice versa..

Yeah, what you're saying is true. I really don't have a way to verify the consistency of my primers other than the results that I get on my targets. Sometimes they're excellent and sometimes not even with everything else being the same, ie; case, powder, bullet. But consistency is my goal. Along with puttin 5 bullets through one hole!!