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Primer/Pressure? 45 ACP

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by steve4102, Mar 7, 2010.

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  1. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    I loaded up some 45 ACP 200gr LSWC with 4.8gr WST seated to 1.250. I loaded 25 Missouri Bullets and 50 Penn Bullets. Wanted to see which one was more accurate before I ordered up several K.

    Here is what my brass/primers look like with this load.
    NewImage-2.gif

    45brass.jpg

    The cartridge on the left has no pin strike mark left, it has been filled in. That mark you see at about 7 O'clock is raised and sharp.

    The center cartridge has a little pin strike left, but not much. It also has the raised sharp piece at the 9 O'clock position. The primer on the right looks normal to me.
     
  2. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

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    the cases on the right show some cratering and begin to flatten must be warm load.
    the left seems 'smeared' by something is this in a 1911 or variant or what?
    I'm not familiar at all with WST I use only 3 powders for .45acp.
    BEye and RDot for cast and Power Pistol for jacketed.
    for my Colt original I use data as close to factory as possible.
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I don't think it is excess pressure at all.

    It appears from the poor cell-phone photo's that soft primers are extruding back into the firing pin hole and getting sheared off when the barrel unlocks.

    I'd check for a gun problem with a loose firing pin hole / too small dia firing pin.
    Or just soft primers.

    Might try changing primer brands and see what happens.

    rc
     
  4. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I'm not at all sure how that load could possibly generate too much pressure.

    Hodgdon says:
    4.4 WST is a starting load giving 15,400 CUP.
    5.1 is MAX giving 19,900 CUP.
    And thats seated shorter, to 1.155".

    The OP's load should be running around 15-16 CUP at that seating length.
    .45 ACP is supposed to run 21,000 PSI MAX.

    I think it is soft primers if it doesn't do it with factory loads.
    Or a gun problem if it does.

    rc
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  6. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Pressure for 5.1 is 19900 on the site with what ever components? The LP primer should hold up better as it might be used in a 44 mag.. I would have to see more of the brass and have a look at the gun also. Check the bullet diameters of the lead bullets also, different. Swaged & cast?? Could it be a Glock? Glock.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  7. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    Light loads and low pressure often mimics a high pressure loads primer condition.

    A 4.8 gr load is just at the edge of enough pressure to expand the case tight in the chamber as indicated by the "normal' looking primers on the right. Its likely your measure throws some lighter charges and they don't have enough pressure to hold the case so its pushes back against the breach and flows around the firing pin. The cratering is from the flow into the chamferd area of the firing pin hole. The sharp edge shown is what's called a firing pin wipe where the pin isn't retracted when the case ejects.

    Do a quality control check of your powder measure and see how consistent the charges are.

    You would have to get the pressures over 45. Win mag handgun level to see pressure signs in the .45acp. I seriously doubt that even 6 grains of WST would do that.
     
  8. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    RC is right again. Primer Wipe http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=440870See post #4
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  9. pcg8r

    pcg8r Member

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    What kind of crimp?
    How much crimp?
     
  10. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Well, it's a 45 ACP, so it is a taper crimp, so it really doesn't matter.

    Taper crimp has almost nothing to do with pressure changes, even when over-done, when loading fast burning pistol powder like WST.

    rc
     
  11. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    45 ACP Dan Wesson 1911 PM7

    Charges dumped with a Harrell's Precision Schuetzen/Pistol Measure. http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=49&rn=378&action=show_detail
    Checked measure today, dumped 25 rounds and weighed each on a 505 and Lyman 1200, right on the money each time.

    Lead SWC seated to 1.225 crimped to .471, just enough to remove the flare.
     
  12. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Primer Wipe

    On Hodgdons website data, comparing 200 gr lead and jacketed bullets, the lead makes more pressure.:confused: Some how that just does not seem right. Printed Win. 1996 data shows 19,900 PSI not CUP as on Hodgdons website. http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1 For primers to look like yours, high pressure + primer wipe.:confused: Photo of primer wipe. Click for larger. [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  13. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    On further reflection on this, it seems to me that 1.250" OAL is Way Too Long for a 200 grain SWC.

    It could be that you are forcing the wadcutter shoulder into the rifling and that is raising pressure.

    You need to pull the barrel out of your gun and "chamber check" some of your loads.
    See if they will actually drop all the way in the chamber freely without forcing them in.

    At any rate, the bullets front driving band/shoulder should be seated almost flush with the case mouth to be the proper OAL with any SWC bullet.

    I think yours must surely be sticking way out of the case and contacting the rifling when seated 1.250" OAL..

    rc
     
  14. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    Thanks RC. Took the barrel out today and used it for a case gauge, you were right on, my OAL was way to long. Had to seat down to 1.235 just to get flush. Haven't loaded or shot any at this new and improved OAL, but my guess is that it will be just fine.

    Thanks again.
     
  15. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    Well, that didn't work. I loaded a few 200gr LSWC with WST at 4.5 and 4.7 seated to 1.225 and 1.230. Hodgdon data lists 4.4 Start and 5.1 Max seated at 1.225.

    Same results as before. Brass came out looking like the round in the middle.
     
  16. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    Well, I found and fixed the problem. My gunsmith was surprised when he heard I had to seat the 200gr LSWC down to 1.225 to get to "flush headspace". Said that 1.250 should not be to long.

    He wanted to see the barrel, so I sent it off to him for inspection. Sure enough the chamber was out of spec. He reamed the barrel chamber and all is well. Took it out yesterday and fired off 7 quick rounds of 200gr LSWC seated to 1.250 with 4.8gr of WST, primers and brass are perfect.

    Thanks
    Steve
     
  17. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Excellent. Glad you found the problem.
     
  18. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    45 acp COL

    (COL) Cartridge overall length has nothing to do with finding the correct seating depth with a lead semi wad cutter bullet. :banghead: It is the head to bullet shoulder measurement that matters. :rolleyes: I feel the powder is giving you pressure spikes. Adding more free bore to the barrel chamber will bleed off this pressure solving your powder problem.:uhoh: I would love to know your maximum head to shoulder measurments before and after reaming?? [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2010
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    The smeared/sheared primers suggest an excessive headspace condition...and excessive in the bad direction. Because some are smeared/sheared and others appear to be okay...I'd also suspect the possibility of firing out of battery. Any case bulges?
     
  20. Wilburt

    Wilburt Member

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    Yep, I've been shooting 5.0 grs WST @ 1.250 w/MO LSWC for a while. I haven't had any problems in over 1k rounds. Seems i'm late to the party though.
     
  21. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    45seatingpossibilitiesx.jpg

    Seating the 200gr LSWC to "flush headspace" second from the right.
    Before reaming. 1.235 avg.
    After Reaming. 1.251,1.252,1.251,1.252 , 4 bullets tested.

    No
     
  22. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    If the chamber was to short, how did the action close in the first place @ 1.250" ?? Your bullets look like my long nose Lyman 200gr. lswc BB that i use in tight chamber GC with a COL of 1.260" or .947" head to shoulder. Very strange . Glad you have it working well now. Edit, If the chamber was short, then the COL would not matter as the cartridge head spaces on the case mouth. Ok, i am awake now lol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2010
  23. steve4102

    steve4102 Member

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    Bullets are Missouri bullets. I also have a K of Penn 200gr LSWC, they measure the same +/- a few thou.
     
  24. 918v

    918v Member

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    You can't read primers for pressure in the 45 ACP unless they are FC-150's. The others are just too hard and don't flatten at 20KPSI.
     
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