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Private Face To Face Firearm Sale - What am I required to do?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 2@low8, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    I am going to sell a rifle and a pistol FTF to someone in Mississippi that I don’t know. What am I required to find out and or verify, if anything, before letting them take possession? Specifically, do they have to prove that they are a resident and that there are no prohibitions to them having a firearm? Or anything else...?

    What information am I required to give the buyers?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  2. docnyt

    docnyt Member

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    It would help if you put your state/location as there are some that require you go through a licensed dealer, FOID, etc.

    In most free states, you just have to be residents of the same state and not be a felon. Some would advocate a bill of sale for your own protection.
     
  3. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    Clarified my original post - thanks docnyt.
     
  4. docnyt

    docnyt Member

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    I believe your state does not require anything specifically outside of what I mentioned. Similar to Alabama (my state), I would just ask that the buyer verify that he does not have any disqualifications to possessing a firearm, both show driver licenses, a gentlemanly handshake, transfer of payment, and you're both on your way.
     
  5. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    I always ask to see their concealed carry permit and driver's license.

    You cannot knowingly sell a firearm to someone that is otherwise not allowed to possess one by law. As a responsible gun owner it is your duty to do everything you can to prevent this. A CCP is a fairly good indicator they are not a felon, unless they became one after being issued. If there is ANY sense that something is amiss, walk away.

    If you want to be sure just have an FFL do the transfer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  6. thorazine

    thorazine Member

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    Same.

    When I am the seller I will indicate in my advertisement concealed carry permit preferred (per buyer) but not required.

    All but one time the buyer had one.

    I never do a bill of sale so I only take a glance at their credentials.

    Then...

    Exchange money for goods.
    BS about guns, etc.
    Shake hands and drive away happy.

    When the role is reversed I am more than happy to flash my credentials (DL / concealed weapons permit).

    But of course state laws vary and that was in FL.
     
  7. willypete

    willypete Member

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    Eesh. I just ask to see cash.

    I've never had anyone request to see a DL or HCP.

    Cash is king, money talks, etc.

    Of course, I also hold the view that government interference in personal transactions is amoral and should be illegal.

    If you feel you have a duty to vet someone's credentials, so be it.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    You are required to not "know, or have reason to know" that the other person is prohibited from possessing a firearm, or that they do not reside in your state.

    Whether you ask them verbally, ask to see credentials, ask to see a CCW license, hire a private investigator to check up on them, make them do the transfer at an FFL, ... or none of the above... is up to you.
     
  9. Ehtereon11B

    Ehtereon11B internet infantryman

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    Making a bill of sale is more of a cover your *** step anyway. While there is no law that says you have to make one, I usually do just to cover myself from potential problems. Photo copy buyer DL next to mine. Hand scribe the weapon make, model, serial number. Both sign, make a copy. Money. Have a good day. Did the same with an old car I sold for parts.
     
  10. TwoEyedJack

    TwoEyedJack Member

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    The only thing I ever ask to see is cash. Of course I have chosen to live in a relatively free state. Your mileage may vary.
     
  11. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    Between a rock and a hard place

    On one hand I don’t want to put a firearm into the possession of someone who wants to do harm to innocent people and on the other hand I hate the intrusiveness of government into our private lives.

    I also worry that these guns I’m going to sell have 4473 forms with my name on them and if I am not able to verify who the persons I sold them to are it might come back to bite me in the butt or at least give me a hassle I don’t need.

    Selling to someone I know would solve the problem, but I keep my circle of gun friends tight and they are not in need or desire of anything I want to sell.

    What I think would ideally be in MY best interest would be to get info from the buyer and not supply any info of my own. I wouldn’t buy a firearm that way, but in these times it just might be totally a seller’ market.
     
  12. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Understood, but there are no guarantees about anyone. Many of the worst mass-murderers have been able to buy a gun over-the counter, filling out the 4473 honestly, etc. You simply cannot pin your own comfort about selling to what someone might do. There's no way to know, and we surely should trust the vast ... VAST ... number of our fellow gun folks to be perfectly honorable, safe, non-murderous people. That's the basis of our belief that all people should be armed until they've PROVED that they no longer warrant the trust of society and must be imprisoned and have their rights curtailed.

    It is possible, with quite a bit of effort, for a trace of a gun recovered in a crime to be followed back to you -- sometimes. (But not always...or even often.)

    If it does, all you must do is say, "I sold it, following the laws of this state and country. I'm sorry, no, I don't know the buyer's name or address. Have a nice day."

    Actually, all you HAVE to say is, "Am I under arrest? No? Ok then, I decline to discuss any matters with you officers, have a fine day." (Or, "...decline to discuss...without counsel present..." if you want to be helpful.) But some folks like to go the extra mile. :)

    If you feel a duty to be able to provide a name and address for the buyer if an investigator does someday show up, a bill of sale could give you that...or at least record what he TOLD you at the time.

    Well, that's your right. You own the property and may place whatever restrictions on the sale you wish. The buyer may do the same. If you can agree to some compromise on each other's demands that suits both of you, make the sale. If not, put the gun back in the safe and carry on.
     
  13. JoePfeiffer

    JoePfeiffer Member

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    You say the buyer is in Mississippi, but if you explicitly said you're also in Mississippi I missed it. If you're not also a Mississippi resident, it needs to go through a FFL.
     
  14. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    Count the money :)
     
  15. answerguy

    answerguy Member

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    And as you slam the door in the cops face they'll be saying "Well looks like we found our guy".
     
  16. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    Also understood, but my 12 years as a LEO, 6 years in uniform patrol & 6 years in homicide, still has me looking for bad guys in all the nooks and crannies… occupational hazard I’m afraid. It’s the reason why I’m forever excused from jury duty. My criterion for guilt is “probable cause” and not “beyond a reasonable doubt”. The lesser criteria of “reasonable suspicion” or just suspicion fires up my investigative engine.

    I might add that being on the “other side”, civilian, has drastically changed my perspective of law enforcement. I am fiercely libertarian in my views because now I have the big picture on how law enforcement works… sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees. I apologize for going off topic and I won’t continue this discussion here. Perhaps in the “Legal” forum at a later date.

    That about sums it up for me. Now I just have to wrestle with my conscience.

    Thanks to all of you for your input…..Frankie
     
  17. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    There is a practical limit to figuring out whether or not to sell to a prospective buyer. After all, Charles Whitman would have passed the NICS test.
     
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    LOL. And...all we have to do is find some evidence that he was in the city where the crime happened on that day, actually present at the crime scene when it happened, knew the deceased and/or had some kind of motive for the crime, and ... you know, like, DID IT. But since he doesn't want to answer questions without counsel, I'm sure that's all a moot point -- he's clearly our man!
     
  19. Killian

    Killian Member

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    I dislike showing someone where I live by handing them my DL. By showing up I've already announced I'm a gun owner. Now I'm giving them a map to my house. If they are a criminal intent on murder, I've also told them where to come to eliminate any witness (me) if they should use the gun they purchased from me for a bad purpose. And nowadays there is too much someone can do with identity information to think it is a good idea to share it with someone else that isn't the bank or a govt official.
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    One of my favorite suggestions (though I've never used it) is to arrange the face-to-face transfer in the parking lot of the local Police Department. Theory being not too many felons would be likely to be real comfortable going there (as buyers OR sellers) so maybe that eases up the pressure to require a look at their ID.
     
  21. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    This is exactly what I had on my mind in my post #11: “What I think would ideally be in MY best interest would be to get info from the buyer and not supply any info of my own.”
     
  22. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    You could also just call the local Chief of Police and say, "Hey, I'm selling this handgun." I'm sure it being Mississppi he is gun friendly and will be willing and able to answer any questions you might have.
    Conduct the Sale in the Police Station Parking Lot and if he doesn't hesitate at that I certainly wouldn't worry.
     
  23. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Can I see your DL to verify state of residence and 18+? (take peek)
    After that I'll usually ask to see a CCW or Voters Reg (felon wont have either)

    No bill of sale, no copying anything down. Just a peek.

    Then count the money.

    Everyone I've always met was super polite and professional. No one had any problems with me taking a peek at their creds.
     
  24. Yotacrawler

    Yotacrawler Member

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    I do a lot of face to face selling and buying. I always ask for DL or ccdw. I always look at their plate as well. If anything doesnt feel right i bail. If I'm buying a gun the second money exchanges hands and the gun is in my possession I take a picture of the s/n with my phone and usually send it to my girlfriend or my brother in law if she doesn't need to know about it. It geotags it for time and location. If there's ever any questions at least you have more than words to go by.
     
  25. bogon48

    bogon48 Member

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    I will buy and sell to friends and family. For other sales, a local gun store handles the exchange by adding to the price of my firearm. They post the ad on the Internet and arrange FFL transfers. Works well for me. I lose nothing and my conscience is easy.

    Of course, here in VA you can sell or buy privately without restriction. But who wants to sell to someone who'll use the gun on you or yours?

    I've been in a pawn shop and gun store when people got rejected during the instant background check we use here in VA. The buyers both looked O.K. Yet one was a convicted felon released from prison. Not sure about the other guy because I didn't hear the whole conversation. He wanted an AK-47 and was "stoked" about getting one of those "bad boys." But he probably didn't get rejected for missing Sunday school. IMHO, we gotta keep guns away from these guys.
     
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