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problem: suicide, solution: get rid of guns

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by atek3, Sep 7, 2007.

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  1. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    so says a famous doctor no less:
    Comment by Benjamin N. Shain, MD, PhD, Ass. Prof., Northwestern Feinberg School Medicine

    * Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.

    I'm glad he footnoted the "studies" so that interested parties could verify the veracity of his statement... Oh wait, he didn't...

    atek3
     
  2. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    send her to Japan ... not hardly any guns and more suicide than the US.
     
  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Well, you can't really compare Japan to the US, an entirely different culture. Which is why they have more suicides per capita than we do gun murders plus all suicides.

    I apply Bubba Logic like so: In the US, call somebody a worthless S.O.B. and he feels insulted and might kill you. In Japan, call somebody a worthless S.O.B. and he decides you are right and kills himself.

    High suicide rate in the Scandinavian countries, though; hardly seems right for the descendants of the Vikings, does it?
     
  4. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    Yes, suicide can and will only be comitted with a gun. Don't help the person who is depressed, that's too much work. Just ban guns, sharp objects, rope, overpasses, water, plastic bags, sleeping pills, alcohol, drugs, vehicles, enclosed spaces, etc.

    So the presence of an inaccessible firearm makes people kill themselves by other means, or does the person expire trying to beat the safe open with their head? Wow all this time I thought guns were mechanical tools but apparently they posess inexplicable cosmic mind control powers!
     
  5. Mr White

    Mr White Member

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    Studies also show that medical doctors attempting to further their personal agendas by veiling them as legitimate medical issues have very little credibility with intelligent human beings.
     
  6. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Yeah the good doctor has got it all right. :neener:

    From the study: Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder And Suicide, published this year:

    http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

    Trying to keep this high road, what a friggin moron! :banghead: At least get the facts before you put them out there as gospel.
     
  7. skinewmexico

    skinewmexico Member

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    Substantially more people killed by doctor's mistakes than by suicide every year.
     
  8. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    Contact the guy..
    http://enh.org/apps/findadoctor/doctor.aspx?docid=2129&lid=1789

    Then contact google news:

     
  9. Bazooka Joe71

    Bazooka Joe71 Member

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    Better get rid of sleeping pills, razor blades, and bath tubs while we're at it.

    For the children.

    And I guess doctors too!

    For the children.
     
  10. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

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    one of the highest suicide rates (IIRC#3)per profession is psychologist/pshychatrist (sp?) thought about it too much. :uhoh:
     
  11. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Culture, schmulture ... guns cause increases in suicides because they are magical talismans of evil and violence that make otherwise healthy people into homicidal/suicidal fiends ... we all know it, this guy is just brave enough to admit it and face the wrath of the multi trillion dollar evil gun lobby.
     
  12. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    I recall a study (and dang it I can't recall where!!!:banghead: ) that concluded that what happens with regards to suicide after gun bans is this:
    At first, the suicide rate does drop. But then after a year or so, it rises, and in fact continues to rise even above the original base level for a year ... and then settles right back where it originally started from.
    The "conclusion" seems to have been that while it thwarts some people who use guns, for awhile, they eventually will turn to other devices.

    That would certainly seem to be the most rational approach to the problem!;)
     
  13. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Problem, teen suicide. Solution, get rid of guns.
    Problem, teen pregnancy. Solution, free education and prophylactics.

    Anyone else tired of the inconsistency?
     
  14. v35

    v35 Member

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    solution: ban country music

    There should be a mandatory waiting period for listening to country music.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=257295&highlight=country+music

     
  15. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    With all due respect, I believe some of you are taking the doctor's advice out of context. As I read the article, the advice about removing guns from the home is in the context of being only one of several precautions to take IF you have reason to believe a teen in the home is at risk for suicidal thoughts. Nowhere do I read it as a blanket precaution to be taken absent signs of a suicide risk.

    Edited to add:
    Several sources state that teen suicided are more prevalent in homes with easy access to guns. Teens, unlike suicidal adults, are more likely to commit the act impulsively. Adults contemplate suicide for longer periods of time and plan the method with more deliberation. A teen who takes pills or cuts because there is no gun available will often survive. Gunshots are more likely to be fatal the first time.

    If a teen in the home was abusing alcohol, would you allow access to your liquor cabinet? If a teen in the home was abusing prescription drugs, would you not lock yours up? These are precautions you would take *while* doing other things to help the teen overcome the underlying problems. Being extra secure with firearms with a seriously depressed teen in the home is just common sense.

    sources: Brent, D.A., Perper, J.A., Moritz, G., Baugher, M., Schweers, J., & Roth, C. (1993). Firearms and adolescent suicide: A community case-control study. American Journal of Diseases of Children, 147, 1066-1071.
    Kellerman, A.L., Rivara, F.P., Rushford, N.B., et al. (1992). Suicide in the home in relationship to gun ownership. New England Journal of Medicine, 327, 467-472.

    K
     
  16. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    That read is inconsistent with this quote from the article.

    (Teens) "...usually kill themselves at most only a few hours after deciding to do so."
     
  17. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    As someone probably already pointed out, out of how many non-fireams suicides by a teenager did they compile any data on if there was a firearm in the home?
    Number of suicides of teenagers using a firearm in 2004: 848

    Number of suicides of teenagers who did NOT use a firearm in 2004: 1,139

    Estimated percentage of American homes with firearms in them: about 40%

    40% of all 1,987 teen suicides combined is 795. "Significantly more likely" my ass!

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/
     
  18. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Gun control advocates frequently like to merge suicides with other statistics to inflate the numbers, and either state or imply that firearms, particularly handguns, are the instrument of choice when it comes to suicide. Then of course is their slavish claim that what ever they want is, “for the children.” The following report is current, and provides some impressive (and documented) points for rebuttal.

    Being focused on the potential method of suicide, rather then the motive or cause behind it, can be a serious mistake. Where there is the will, there will always be a way.


     
  19. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Kentak: Here was my problem with the good doctor.

    I don't care what context he puts that in, it is a lie and not factual. Studies do not show that homes that have firearms locked up are less likely to have kids kill themselves.

    It is just another ignorant person, passing on misinformation about a subject they are not educated on. To me that is tantamount to intentionally lying. If you are too lazy to get the truth about something, don't say anything about it at all. Especially if you are passing information on as a "so called expert".

    It is bad enough we have to deal with an agenda driven media, why should we put up with garbage from people like the Dr. who are supposedly more trustworthy?
     
  20. The Viking

    The Viking Member

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    Almost 80 years of Social Democratic tyranny does funny things to your head.
     
  21. Bezoar

    Bezoar member

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    This is one of those times when the evidence can and will be skewed to fit anyones pet theory to a t.

    Instead of getting guns away from us, why dont they focus on the problem that makes people commit suicide? IF you looked closely i bet you would see that most suicides are caused by economic reasons, so get rid of letting debt be a deciding factor in denying work.
     
  22. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    camslam,

    There's locked up, then there's locked up. I have no idea why you are getting so worked up about this article. The doctor whose comments are referenced in the OP is, by any definition, an expert in adolescent psychology, depression, and suicide. I suspect you are not.

    Nowhere in the comments does the doctor suggest *banning* guns in society as a means of preventing teen suicide. He suggests removing firearms from the home when there are warning signs of serious mental issues, such as depression, with a teen in the home. Do you find something sinister about that suggestion? Would you want your seriously depressed son or daughter to have easy access to the guns in your house while helping your child return to a more mentally healthy condition? Are you going to use the availability of other methods of suicide as a reason *not* to secure the most effective, instantaneous, and irreversible method? Do you feel it some sort of betrayal of RKBA to temporarily secure or make unavailable firearms to a loved one who is experiencing difficult mental health challenges? Do you refuse to believe troubled teens may act impulsively and fatally when access to guns is easy and immediate? Do you believe your own child or children are immune from mental illness and depression?

    K
     
  23. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    Are you suggesting that the doctor is not advocating dealing with the suicidal teen's problems? Are you suggesting he believes removing firearms from the home is a "solution" rather than a prudent precaution for the duration of the crisis?

    K
     
  24. camslam

    camslam Member

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    Kentak: I didn't realize I was getting "all worked up" about this. But thanks for the heads up, I'll try to calm down a bit. :)

    I don't think anything from my comments dealt with aspects regarding the suicidal tendencies of others, and what I would or would not do in regards to their potential actions.

    I was simply putting forth the fact that guns get a bad enough rap from every media source. And when a "so called" expert makes a blanket statement, that homes with guns have significantly more suicides, that is just plain incorrect. If it was some joe-schmo that said it, people probably wouldn't give it much thought, but because an "expert" said it, it must be true. My comments are more about the Dr. and his irresponsible statement.

    Any responsible gun owner is going to have his firearms secured regardless if there is a suicidal person in the house. I have taken measures in my own home to make sure I have access to loaded weapons that are ready to be used, but they are all locked up in safes of one kind or another and in secure locations in my home.

    I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I am simply arguing the Dr. made an irresponsible blanket statement that cannot be proven true. If he had said parents should remove anything that is dangerous and can be used to kill a person from the house, I wouldn't have had an issue. But he chose to single out firearms with a statement that is inaccurate. Why nothing about knives, pills, rope, or any other object that is used as frequent or more frequent than firearms?

    Hopefully you catch where I am coming from on this.
     
  25. The Unknown User

    The Unknown User Member

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    Awesome, someone with a scholary degree inflating statistics and making absurb suggestions.

    Inherently, if a firearm is not readily present, it cannot be used in a suicide. However, the problem is not whether or not a firearm is readily present--it is why one is so seriously clinically depressed to the point where they want to take their own life.

    Frankly, if one wants to take their own life, they will succeed if they want to badly enough. What's important is that someone wants to take their own life, and will likely attempt to do so until they succeed. I fail to see why the emphasis of this issue is on the chosen method by which one takes their own life.

    Removing firearms from homes will not, under any circumstances prevent suicides from taking place. Removing firearms from homes will only cause an increase in other methods of suicide taking place
     
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