Problems with F C headstamp

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gamestalker

Please explain why the 9 being a tapered case (larger at the base than the mouth) would make it harder to push the bullet back. I'm not following this. It seem the more the bullet would be pushed in the easier it would get...............unless the case wall thickness increases faster than the OD of the case.
 
The FC cases are springy compared to other brands. Sizing the FC's they would always come out about .002 OD larger than other brands.
Click to expand...
Interesting observation. I've noticed my FC brass is a distinct color. And I had the impression that is was a harder (probably cheaper) alloy, myself, although I never measured with calipers. FC pistol brass seems to give me the most inconsistent neck tension of the major brands.

I've also noticed my 9mm FC brass has huge variation in case capacity. When I load it, I am always pulling some cases off the block that look too low. I dump and rethrow, and they always come out the same as before. It's the case, not the charge. I've tried separating out the FC from the FC-dot. And there is a small difference, but there's still a lot of variation left even comparing the sorted FC brass.
 
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Anything to help a fellow reloader with problems Showmebob.

The 9mm gets tighter internally from the mouth to the web, thus the deeper the bullet is seated the more tension that is created. I'm sitting here with a caliper as I type, and the internal measurement from the mouth is .351" - .354" with a graduated taper to just above the web of .310.", that calculates to ..036" - .039" tighter. And from the mouth to the mid section of the case, which about where a bullet seats to, is about .022" - .025" smaller internal dimension. And yes, I am measuring FC brass that has been load more than once, resized and internally clean as a whistle.

My Speer manual hits on this topic stating that because the 9mm was a trouble child at one point in this respect. So modern cases have a more pronounced internal taper to help eliminate set back. This is why a properly sized, belled, and then crimped finished cartridge should have a coke bottle look to it. Narrower just below the seated bullet with that swollen look above that refrence point. In other words, it should be quite easy to determine where the bullet is seated to internally, just by appearance alone.

Glad to assist if this helps at all.
GS
 
My final guess is consistent with rC's suggestions. Measure your expander plug, measure your resizing die, and chech for proper resizing die adjustment.

Something else that might help to quickly diagnose the problem is to remove your expander plug and try resizing a few like that. And if the expander is the culprit, either contact the die manufacturer and ask for another one or clean / polish the expander until it measures .352" - .353". If it's the resizing die send it back to the manufacture for repair / replacement.

What you are doing in general demonstrates good reloading safety. The 9mm is not a cartridge to take set back problems with a grai of salt, being that it is a very OAL pressure sensitive cartridge, and operates at high pressures as is. .010" set back on the short side can cause an excessive spike in pressures. .030" can result in a KB. So keep up the close observation and attention to detail, and you'll never have to get tagged with one eyed jack, or lefty.

GS
 
gamestalker

Thanks for the explanation. When the bullets do push into the case I can feel the resistance fades quickly, the bullet moves in quickly and then stops abruptly. I'll have more time next month to make more measurements but for now the sizer and expander seem to be the correct size. I may try yet another expander I have just for fun. This is frustrating to me because I don't have this problem with the other 3 calibers I load for.

Thanks to all for the help, I'll report back next month after I get a little time to devote to the project again.:)
 
a quick and dirty way to measure case wall thickness: measure the diameter of a loaded round (at the mouth), measure the diameter of the bullet you are using, subtract the two, divide the result by 2.

if you want to find out if the thickness varies, do the measurement at different locations on the case-mouth.

accuracy isn't as good as a micrometer, but it should tell you what you need to know.

murf
 
And the answer is

Conclusion: I went back to my old die setup. Hornady dies with the standard expander. I was previously using the Hornady PTX so I could seat and crimp seperately. I was using a Lee FCD to crimp with. After resetting the Hornady seat/crimp die I ran a dozen case test batch. I couldn't achieve setback no matter how hard I pushed on the case. The combination of the FC brass and the Hornady PTX caused to much loss of neck tension. Not sure if the FCD had anything to do with it either. The PTX works just fine with other brands of brass so I can't completely blame Hornady. Use caution if you use FC brass and the Hornady stepped PTX. Test for set back on the bench and avoid troubles at the range.
Thanks to all for the advice!
 
Spoke too soon

Tonight I had a chance to load up some of different brand cases (as usual). I again had problems with FC cases. I tried not using the expander at all and switching to another sizer die. No luck. About 45% of the bullets would push back into the cases with strong two thumb pressure of all the cases that had problems all were FC except for one Speer. No other brand had issues. I guess after tonight I'll just have to blame the brass, maybe they had a bad run. For now the FC gets set aside or hits the recycle bucket. Next week I'll call hornady and see if they have any ideas.
 
one last suggestion and i will leave you alone.

scrap the carbide sizing die and get an old-style steel sizing die. don't forget to lube the outside of the case first.

imop, sizing a tapered case with a straight wall sizing die is not working.

murf
 
gamestalker,
Don't you know you're cheating when you read all that info on your Speer manual besides the load data itself? Shame!
 
all the cases that had problems all were FC except for one Speer. No other brand had issues.
Click to expand...
9mm:
Both are "ATK" produced cases, along with a few more headstamps. I find all ATK cases to be "softer" in my LEE turret press. WIN, R&P and PPU tend to be "harder". This softness or hardness is especially noticeable in the handle pull when seating the bullet. Separating the soft and hard cases into two groups gives me noticeably better oal and taper crimp consistency.
YMMV
 
Got another chance to load last night. I sorted all the FC Speer and Blazer cases out. Loaded up 200 with no problems. One thing I did notice is that the .FC., Speer and Blazer cases all have an appearance of being rounded toward the primer pocket where other brands/headstamps appear to be flat. I think this may be the way to identify trouble cases. When I get more time I'll load up some FC (no dot) cases that appear flat and see if they are problem childs as well.

1SOW, I agree

gamestalker, I did try not using the expander at all. Seating pressure was greater but setback still happened with 2 thumb pressure.

murf, I pulled the decap pin from my sizing die and measured it. It is indeed tapered with the small end .351 if I remember correctly. It was the measurement give to me by Hornady. FWIW they also said it is a brass problem.

Thanks to everyone for their insight. If anyone thinks of anything else please post.
Thanks again!
 
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I hope there is a solution, as I have the same problem with FC, Speer, and many other brands. I have thousands of mixed cases, and I'd love to use them someday. :)

My replacement die just got back from Hornady, and I still can't get good neck tension with FC and Speer.

The only consistently good results are with Winchester 9mm brass. All others suffer from setback. I've never been able to push the bullet into a Winchester case.
 
Well, that's interesting! Do you think a die that is .001 smaller will make enough of a difference in neck tension?
 
showmebob,
The cases that are "rounded toward the primer pocket" are actually slightly concave. This is the way Speer has made their brass for many years. Blazer is made by Speer so has concave case heads. AlliantTechSystems (ATK) recently became the parent company of both Federal and Speer (among others). We are now seeing some Federal cases with the concave heads. I personally have never had any problem with these cases and doubt that they are the source of your problem.
 
moxie

I'm glad you have never had any problem with these cases. I however, can find no other logical reason for the problem at this time. If you need to cool off from the TX heat this summer, come to CO and we'll explore this problem together.
 
Solution appears to be to get a smaller (.002) sizer die or scrap the brass. I don't reload 9 anymore but never had the problem with mixed brass and RCBS die. You could use cast in those cases! A 38 SWC should fit good.
 
showmebob .......
It sounds like you may be using a .38/.357 resizing die. If not, it sounds like the ID of your sizing die is just too large. By the way, Federal cases are some of the very best brass you can buy.
 
Innovative
Definately not using 38/357 dies. Have tried both Hornady and Lee sizing dies with and without using expander/ptx. .FC. Speer and Blazer seem to be the biggest offenders. Other brands work just like there supposed to. Till I get more time to "play" with this issue I'm culling the brass.
 
I too have had this problem with CCI, FC, and Speer 9mm brass. Especially the brass with one or two dots around the manufacturer stamp and the concave base. I have given up since RP and Win brass have firm neck tension. I can't measure a difference with the equipment I have between the brass or loaded rounds.

Bullets are Montana Gold 124gr JHP and my dies are Lee. Using the FCD does nothing and starting the bullet with no flare doesn't change things.

The older Federal brass doesn't have the issue but I've set it all aside for now. I currently don't have any lead bullets but that may be the use for them in the future.
 
I've seen individual defective cases that you wouldn't believe. However, it's rare to find a large quantity of brass with a significant problem. In this case, it appears that some of this brass discussed has a real defect.
 
I've been loading range pickup FC and F.C. brass, and I've noticed quite a bit of difference in force needed to size them. Some require lots of effort, others zip in and out of my Redding carbide sizer.

Why does this happen? Do some pistols have such larger chambers that the brass expands more, so it needs more effort to resize?
 
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