Problems with loading .45 ACP

[918v]

Well, that's just it, isn't? That is what the FCD is all about in theory, but too many times it appears indispensable.

If I eliminated an FCD operation, I certainly would still want to own an FCD and have it standing by as needed. Problem is, now I have to gauge every round because I didn't cover variations with an FCD operation. I don't want to find out later that the ammo is not reliable.

Why should I be forced to use someone else's commercial ammo just to gain confidence that it is reliable enough for a match? Why is my ammo only considered good enough for range practice just because I am too stubborn to use an FCD? The part I don't appreciate is having to own a certain type of press just to fit in that extra operation. Oh well.

I plan to carefully go through the process laid out in noylj's post. I will try one more time to see if I can get consistent OAL without a case collapsing. I will also check the .472 finished diameter at the case mouth that bds stressed a number of times. I have a lot more skill and insight now than when I first tried to set up dies. That's always the way. Here I am using an FCD and nothing is broken, and I am trying to fix something. Actually, being able to drop an operation would be very useful in a couple of my scenarios, primarily when limited to three stations and doing all operations on the press (priming).

The FCD is unnecessary if you do all the steps right. I use a Redding taper crimp die because I do not want my bullet diameter affected.

The problem with seating and crimping at the same time is that this simultaneous operation depends on a consistent case length. Otherwise, short cases won't get crimped enough and long cases will dig into the bullet before it is fully seated- these are the problem rounds:

The case mouth crapes the bullet shank and holds the lead shavings in a place where they interfere with chambering. In addition, depending on lead hardness, the case mouth stops digging into the bullet shank and the case wall starts to peel away from the bullet just below the crimp.

Some people are talented enough to peel the whole case away from the bullet and can spin the bullet (which is held in place only by the crimp) inside the case with their fingers. They go on various internet sites asking if they need more crimp.

 

[Walkalong]

They go on various internet sites asking if they need more crimp.

And invariably someone will tell them to use the FCD on them to "fix" them.

 

[John Wayne]

Well, I loaded 30 more rounds today with 230 gr. LRN bullets.

I tried seating the bullets and crimping seperately, as suggested, to see if it would help. I also did not use the FCD this time.

Bullets were seated within OAL specs (toward the longer end of the spectrum), but after being crimped they still would not chamber. I checked after the first three rounds so thankfully I didn't waste any time. I then adjusted my dies so that they were very close to minimum OAL (min: 1.190", mine averaged 2.000"), and crimped these rounds. Crimp was determined by placing an empty case in the shellholder, raising the ram to the top of its stroke, and adjusting the crimp die (with the seater backed all the way out) down until it touched the case mouth--then 1/2 turn more. I made 30 rounds this way and fired them with the following results:

26 fired as normal
2 would not go into battery after the previous round was fired. The rounds would not go into battery by smacking the slide. After ejecting these rounds and loading them in the magazine again, they chambered, fired, and ejected fine.
1 round did not fully go into battery. A light tap on the rear of the slide sent it into battery and everything functioned as normal.
1 round was sluggish to go into battery; the slide did not fully forward until the trigger was released

All rounds were fired from a Glock 30 with a Lone Wolf .45 ACP barrel. Load was Georgia Arms 230 gr. LRN over 7.1 gr. HS-6 (using Win 540 data), COL 2.000, with mixed cases and CCI LP primers. Gun and barrel have had approximately 50 rounds through them between cleanings.

 

[tac_driver]

A 230gr. LRN I seat to 1.250" and crimp to .469" for the lonewolf barrel in my 21SF The lonewolf barrels have tight tolerances.

 

[noylj]

1) The bullets would have to be GROSSLY oversize to cause the problem
2) The FCD does an excellent job of crimping (if you follow directions) and will not size down the case unless it is over SAAMI maximum. That is not a standard sizing ring but oversize to match SAAMI max dimensions. It will not size your case unless there is some other problem and the crimp is excellent. It doesn't swage my 0.358" 9mm rounds or my 0.360 .38 Special rounds, or my 0.454" .45 rounds.
3) John: Did you go through setting up your dies as I described?

 

[John Wayne]

John: Did you go through setting up your dies as I described?

Yes, and that is the way I have always done it with other calibers too. The only thing I did differently was to seat the bullets and crimp in seperate steps, instead of at the same time.

A 230gr. LRN I seat to 1.250" and crimp to .469" for the lonewolf barrel in my 21SF The lonewolf barrels have tight tolerances.

Thanks, I will try crimping to .469". My reloads have been .472"; that may be the problem. Didn't realize the chambers were quite so tight and I did not want to turn the die down too far and risk messing up the headspacing. What bullets are you using?

 

[Walkalong]

Yep. Go below .472.

 

[918v]

1) The bullets would have to be GROSSLY oversize to cause the problem

Not really. I had a Wilson CQB with a .452" throat. It would not accept .452" bullets. I had to resize them to .451" in order for the round to chamber. Everything is subject to tolerances. Inevitably someone is bound to get an undersize part and someone else an oversize part.

 

[SSN Vet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the words Factory Crimp Die are purely marketing speak.

If you buy a die set for and autoloader cartridge, the FCD is a taper die, with the added feature of a post sizing ring.

Neither my 9mm Luger nor .45 acp LFCDs "squeeze" the bullet in a Collet (leaving the tell tail marks) as does the LFCD for rifle rounds.

The post sizer on the .45 acp die will usually rub the bell on thicker walled cases (Federal brass). And with a .452" dia. LSWC, it will just touch the "belly" of rounds loaded with Federal brass. Thin wall brass from RP or Aguila never touches the post sizing ring at all. I've pulled lead bullets that have been loaded with the thicker Federal brass (and hence post sized) and they measure the exact .452 that they did before being seated.

I can't help but suspect that a lot of the "post sizing" that folks experience with the LFCD is due to putting excessive flare in the brass when expanding the case mouth.

Sure I could set up the seating die to crimp and seat, but I have a four hole turret press and would have to advance through an empty station anyways, so I find seating and crimping in separate strokes very convenient. It makes set up a breeze and allows me to tweak either the crimp or COAL with out affecting the other operation.

I suspect that the source of much of the hot emotions over the LFCD is really Lee's over the top rhetoric.

The LFCD is not the end all to be all..... but it's also not a tool of the anti-Christ.

For all auto-loading pistol calibers, it's just a taper crimp die with a post sizing ring.

 

[918v]

I can't help but suspect that a lot of the "post sizing" that folks experience with the LFCD is due to putting excessive flare in the brass when expanding the case mouth.

That's not it. FCD's have an unacceptable tolerance level and some, like mine, would swage a .452" bullet down in the case. Yours does not. I suspect yours on one extreme end of the tolerance and mine on the other.

 

[USSR]

...would not accept .452" bullets. I had to resize them to .451" in order for the round to chamber.

Had the same problem with my Series 70 Gold Cup, had to use a .451 sizer.

Don

 

[918v]

Some 45 ACP chambers have conical throats, meaning they are closer to a revolver forcing cone than a typical rifle-like freebore. Those accept all kinds of bullets. Wilson cuts a straight freebore that is supposed to be .453" in diameter. If you get a tight one, as I did, you'll run into problems.

 

[noylj]

The FCD is needed, in that it does an excellent job of crimping.
It is NOT needed if all you are doing is trying to iron-our your errors—which it will do, but should you be firing that case?
My FCD dies do not size the case or swage the bullet, unless I have screwed something up.
For a roll crimp, I find the Redding Profile Crimp and the Lee FCD give me the best, most accurate, crimp.
For a taper crimp, I find the Redding Taper Crimp and the Lee FCD give me the best, most accurate, crimp.
The FCD also makes a really good push-through sizing die.

 

[tac_driver]

Yes, and that is the way I have always done it with other calibers too. The only thing I did differently was to seat the bullets and crimp in seperate steps, instead of at the same time.



Thanks, I will try crimping to .469". My reloads have been .472"; that may be the problem. Didn't realize the chambers were quite so tight and I did not want to turn the die down too far and risk messing up the headspacing. What bullets are you using?

Midstates cast bullets
45 acp 230 gr. RN sized to 0.452

 

[RealGun]

The FCD is needed, in that it does an excellent job of crimping. It is NOT needed if all you are doing is trying to iron-our your errors—which it will do, but should you be firing that case? My FCD dies do not size the case or swage the bullet, unless I have screwed something up.

If the post sizing ring isn't needed, or it is not wanted until rounds are gauged, then the FCD could as well be just a taper crimp die. Lee doesn't make just a carbide taper crimp, so no, lead bullet guys are not going to be happy with Lee's crimp die. It's not a bad die. It's just the wrong one in some cases.

Here is a question I had when looking at what dies were available. Would a die that does nothing but taper crimp need to be carbide or lubricated? So what, if taper crimp dies are not that commonly available in carbide?

 

[Rico567]

I don't know what problem some people seem to have with the Lee FCD.......I certainly can't see it. I started using it because maybe 7-8 rounds in 100 wouldn't quite pass the case gauge. All the rest of my rounds were just fine, and I could never seem to "adjust it out." I started using the FCD and the problem went away. Very rarely, I can feel the size ring on the FCD engage a round, but the real beauty of this is that I've been able to quit doing the separate case gauge step with my ammo.

And, no, I don't believe a word that the FCD is somehow going to give lead bullets excessive setback. Something else is wrong if that is the case.

 

[Walkalong]

Would a die that does nothing but taper crimp need to be carbide or lubricated? So what, if taper crimp dies are not that commonly available in carbide?

No, it does not need to be carbide. There is very little contact with the case. Lee makes a taper crimp die that only taper crimps. I am sure it does a fine job. There is nothing magical about how a FCD taper crimps. It works just like any taper crimp die except the part that does the crimping "floats" on an o ring.

The FCD's carbide ring that "post sizes" is an answer to a non problem. Unless you are loading over sized bullets, there is no need for it. Even then I would just say buy different bullets. Chamber too small for .452 lead and decent brass? Get it reamed out a couple thou.

The one argument I hear that I can live with is folks who use it as a "gauge" instead of gauging the ammo after loading to ensure function for a match. That ammo does not need to be super accurate, just accurate enough. It does, however, need to function 100%.

 

[RealGun]

The FCD's carbide ring that "post sizes" is an answer to a non problem. Unless you are loading over sized bullets, there is no need for it.

That is simply not true. The problem is rounds that won't gauge (or chamber). The solution is running them through an FCD. The "prevention" might be something else, but the FCD definitely solves a problem. Those who use an FCD regularly don't really need to care about being perfect without an FCD. That is not a goal for its own sake unless one is loading on a three hole turret. I do that in one caliber but then am stuck with having to gauge every round.

 

[Walkalong]

The solution is running them through an FCD. The "prevention" might be something else, but the FCD definitely solves a problem.

The "prevention" is something else, as you posted, but it does not "solve" the problem, it "masks" the problem.

Those who use an FCD regularly don't really need to care about being perfect without an FCD. That is not a goal for its own sake unless one is loading on a three hole turret

Well, if ones standards are that low, I guess it works. Personally, I do care about the quality of my reloads.

 

[RealGun]

Well, if ones standards are that low, I guess it works. Personally, I do care about the quality of my reloads.

I don't think that's a fair statement. What matters is whether the round will chamber and go bang! No ones "standards are low", and no one is stupid or foolish. They just want ammo that works. If everyone could control all the variables involved with used brass and trying to automate, they might not need that failsafe operation (FCD).

 

[918v]

What matters is whether the round will chamber and go bang!

I guess if one does not care about accuracy, then the FCD is a way to make crappy rounds chamber and fire.

 

[noylj]

These are my results:
I tried every combination of dies that I had and a few I picked up cheap at a gun show.
For 148gn HBWC in .38 Special, the most accurate ammunition was unsized and slightly roll crimped with the Redding Profile Crimp die. Almost as accurate, based on over 50 groups each, was the Lee FCD. These two were head and shoulders above the others. I found that the most critical aspect of loading the HBWC was NOT to swage down the bullet during seating or crimping. Brass is way over expanded so about half the bullet sits in the case before seating a bullet. The only way I could approach and exceed factory ammunition was: unsized brass; an old RCBS expander that did not flare the case out as expansion was increased; a Hornady, Dillon, or Lee seater die with the seater machined so it did not distort the "bump" at the front of the bullet: and the Redding Profile Crimp or Lee FCD. They both eliminate the excess expansion without swaging the bullet (which is .358 at the head and .360 at the hollow base).
For my .45ACP, I have done some of the same, but the .45 is no where near as touchy and sensitive to reloading actions. Again, the Lee FCD puts on a taper crimp every bit as nice as the Redding taper crimp die and, while I don't have the statistics I have on the .38 Wadcutter, they appear to be more likely to produce very accurate rounds than the Hornady, Dillon, and RCBS dies I have.
Thus, for me, the Lee FCD is inexpensive and gives me about the best crimp I have gotten.
I have always crimped until I can not see or feel the flare any more. This works out to .472-.470" when I have measured.

 

[918v]

I have cut factory HBWC groups by 50% by seating the bullets quarter inch out past the case mouth and taper crimping with a Redding taper crimp die. I size my brass with a Lee oversize carbide sizer which returns the brass to factory spec. I agree that HBWC cannot be molested, else they will shoot like crap.

 

[Walkalong]

and no one is stupid or foolish.

Never did I say that, nor infer it.

The crimp part of a die is very simple. Any properly made crimp die will work well. We all have our favorites of course. I choose not to rely on a carbide ring to make reloads fit guns, so I want crimp dies that do not have that feature. The FCD for auto rounds does a nice taper crimp, just like any decent taper crimp die, but a beautiful crimp can be had without using the FCD with its "post sizing" carbide ring, so I choose not to use the FCD. Besides, I do not need it to make my reloads fit my guns, even on very tight chambers.

It is of course easier to set up the seating and crimping in separate steps, but with auto rounds that use a very light taper crimp it is totally unnecessary if one does not want to buy an extra die. The bullet is being seating such a small amount as the crimp is applied that it won't hurt a thing, if set up properly.

 

[The Bushmaster]

If you need a FCD to correct your mistakes you need to go back and figure out and correct your reloading procedures.

I do use a FCD for crimping .30-30 rounds. But for crimping only as I prefer the crimp that it produces.