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Protests = Terrorism, says the Pentagon

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Flyboy, Jun 17, 2009.

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  1. Flyboy

    Flyboy Member

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    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526972,00.html
    Gun nexus: the Second Amendment Rally, among other things.
     
  2. rick2497

    rick2497 Member

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    And some people still wonder why we need the 2nd amendment.
     
  3. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Martin said getting information on the extent of the FBI and National Security Agency’s surveillance programs is nearly impossible."

    Well duh. Just duh.

    John
     
  4. Flyboy

    Flyboy Member

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    So...in light of this, does anybody want to come out and defend the idea of denying firearms to those on the "terrorism watch list?"

    C'mon, I know there are a few of you out there....
     
  5. 2RCO

    2RCO Member

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    Somebody please tell me this is incorrect somehow????????????

    I really hope that protesting is not considered terrorism(low level or whatever, in the USA) This has to be taken out of context or something. If not this needs to be on every News network all day long and the Outrage should cause a lot of protesting.

    Someone please clarify this before my head explodes!:cuss:
     
  6. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    No, it was not taken out of context, that's word for word what the DoD exam said.

    The ACLU pitched a fit and the DoD has since removed that question and answer from their exams and sent emails to everyone who took the test clarifying that the question was intended to refer to violent protests.

    But the original question did in fact simply say "protests are terrorism".

    Honest mistake? Maybe, but if so I have to then question who would let someone that dumb write exam questions.
     
  7. 2RCO

    2RCO Member

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    I would hope the Left, Right, and Center could all get behind this.

    Every once in awhile the ACLU does something right.
     
  8. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, I was saying to someone earlier it's a shame the ACLU doesn't believe in the Second Amendment.

    They would be a powerful ally.
     
  9. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    I thought this test was for americans serving overseas...

    I could almost swear I saw the same question in that DoD Anti-terrorism Level 1 test that was posted here a while back - and all of those questions were geared towards overseas service.
     
  10. catspaw

    catspaw Member

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    JMHO, without protest, we would still be a colony.
     
  11. Flyboy

    Flyboy Member

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    Even if it were for overseas personnel, most of those people make it back stateside at one point or another, and they don't receive attitude transplants upon crossing the border.
     
  12. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    What does overseas have to do with it? You mean, like, when we send our troops to someone else's country, the natives have no right to protest anything and should be seen as terrorists, if they get uppity? I thought the big reason we were sending troops overseas was to spread our democratic values and freedom.
     
  13. Flyboy

    Flyboy Member

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    Outstanding question, Lemmy. Mr. Jenkins, would you care to answer?
     
  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    That's originally the same excuse that was given by DoD however they backed down quickly given 2 items:

    1) it's still not terrorism and there are plenty of countries besides ours that allow peaceful protests and

    2) eventually these people will return to the US and if they are taught initially that protest=terrorism you can't exactly unring that bell when they return to the US.

    So, trying to excuse it for ANY reason just makes it more disgusting.
     
  15. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    Well, most Americans serving overseas are not well liked. Heck, most Americans just being overseas are not well liked (anyone visit a foreign country lately not related to gov. service?).

    In fact, the majority of Americans we have currently overseas are in countries where they're not only "not well liked" but shot at on a regular basis.

    As most overseas protests these days seem to be anti-American, or have some anti-capitalism slant, it would behoove most Americans to steer clear of them as they may be singled out for violence.

    There are many forms of terrorism and terrorist. The words means "to cause terror or someone who causes terror", not necessarily "to bomb the $#!@ out of something".

    And I don't believe that "the bell can't be unrung". It's been postulated many times here that American soldiers would never agree to disarm their fellow Americans, so it seems they can obviously tell the difference between someone protesting American embargos vs. protesting high prices on chicken quarters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  16. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    And that is exactly the problem. There is no difference between the two protests, as far as the 1st amendment is concerned, but you politically believe so, thus would not have a problem with the military making the distinction and acting on it.

    Again, utterly irrelevant. Being anti-American or anti-capitalist =/= terrorist. Speech is speech. Violence is violence. Saying that some political speech is terrorism and some political violence is not, depending on which side of an issue is in political power opens up a nasty relativistic can of worms that makes it just fine for the opposing party to go tit for tat when they gain power. Preventing this is why constitutional republics exist.

    Your definition of terrorism is laughably broad. Its the same definition antis use against us- "Ooh, the scary man with the gun frightened me, therefore he must be made illegal, because I am scared!"

    Here's a better, but still lacking, definition of terrorism:

    The Wikipedia article goes on to say:

    Which seems utterly à propos this thread. In fact, the DOD is deliberately attempting to broaden the definition of terrorism to deligitimize their peaceful political opponents.
     
  17. ztnedman1

    ztnedman1 Member

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    I agree that its terrorism. Not terrorism to America but to the Governement! It is supposed to BE!!

    The government of the United States is supposed to FEAR the people not the other way around. We are supposed to be in control of them but no longer are.

    This is why we have the constitution and why we have the 2nd ammendment as our last ditch option to correct the situation.
     
  18. 33-805

    33-805 Member

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    Left leaning liberalism=a desire for more govt interference to "take care of us"=this sort of elitist belief in the ranks of govt functionaries that they know what is best for us. If protest inconveniences our keepers while they are looking out for us, then it is terrorism.

    Dangerous and slippery slope to start down. I wish the liberal left would think of this this stuff before it hits the first amendment. I wish they understood that this sort of thing isn't a possibility for a disarmed populace, it is an inevitability. The first amendment is a wonderful thing in all its five freedoms. The second keeps it in place and working. The left needs to realize that you cannot have one without the other. At least not in a functioning way.
     
  19. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    I meant to say "protesting American embargos overseas" vs "protesting chicken...domestically". I wasn't aware the 1st amendment extened to foreign countries - thanks for clearing that up.

    Your absolutely right. I guess if the protests I constantly see in anti-american countries weren't full people toting AK-47's, I'd consider their protests to be only about "free speech" and not connected to violence. Plus, I'm not referring to constitutional republics.

    My broad definition of terrorism is no more laughable than you quoting Wikipedia. In fact, if you google "define:terrorism" you'll find 3 down that it used to be defined (on wikipedia) as "Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" - and that is also how it is defined in the Merriam Webster dictionary, which I would argue is a tad more legitimate when it comes to the definitions of words.

    My argument is that American servicepeople can tell the difference between a domestic peaceful protest and a violent anti-American protest overseas; and a single, poorly worded question in a DoD test isn't going to change that perception unless they're extraordinarily weak minded. The 1st amendment applies here, not there.
     
  20. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    The left does realize this. It's the statist center that doesn't. The center wants to preserve the status quo (which is unjust, but benefits them nicely), and removing the tools of others to change the status quo is the first step. And this applies to the entire bill of rights, not just the 1A and 2A.

    But enough off topic political nonsense. This valuable thread should not get shut down over it.
     
  21. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    But you didn't say that. And what you actually did say made my 1st amendment statement relevant. Your backpedaling, then trying to turn the 1st Amendment argument into a straw man is freaking hilarious.

    And, while the 1st amendment obviously does not apply overseas, when we send troops to 'export our democracy' (which is a fantastic euphemism for 'overthrowing the sovereign government of another country using military force,' we sort of owe it to ourselves to not hold the civilians of that country to a different standard than to which we hold ourselves, which is exactly what you are doing in your argument above. That's called 'hypocrisy,' and is probably the single biggest motivator of anti-American sentiment around the world.

    The DoD test question did not say that 'protesting with an AK47' was a low level form of terrorism. It just said 'protest' was. But, even then, protesting an occupying force with an AK47 used against the occupying force is generally called 'asymmetric warfare.' Unless you're the occupying force. Then you call it 'terrorism,' which definition goes back to about 1776 in our country, and probably even further in the history of the world. But that just depends on what side you're on. It's pretty clear you're on the side of imperialism, when it's your empire. I'm guessing you're against imperialism when it isn't.

    And if we are really going to put our money where our mouths are, someday our domestic protests may involve the use of AR15s, if the FedGov continues to abridge the Bill of Rights. Isn't that what the 2nd Amendment is about? By your definition of terrorism, we will be the terrorists in that context. Your argument is utterly relativistic and discredits any principle you might have for backing the 2A.

    But the obviousness of your rhetorical cherry picking and American exceptionalism doesn't need me to point it out.
     
  22. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Whether people can tell the difference on their own has nothing at all to do with this.

    The point is that the government defined "terrorism" as any form of protest and that is flat out wrong.

    They know it was wrong, which is why they changed it.

    Not sure why you'd continue to defend it as a perfectly acceptable answer. It is not.
     
  23. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    I wasn't aware people protested American embargos over here, since we don't place embargos against ourselves, which is why I didn't feel the need to add "overseas".

    Yes, my 1st amendment comment was flippant, but was I was not backpeddling.

    As far as my thinking that America is better than anywhere else, and that we're the only ones that need to live up to our own standards - guilty as charged. I don't view other counties as equals and never will.

    EDIT: As far as defending it as a perfectly acceptable answer... I still see it as an overseas issue that has nothing to do with domestic protests. Plus, I'm stubborn, and I don't respond well to condescension and people telling me what my positions are, or accusing me of doing something I'm not simply because I didn't phrase something correctly.
     
  24. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    You'd have to be living in a cave not to have been aware of protests in this country by our own citizens regarding American embargoes against the Palestinians (as but one example, whether right or wrong), as well as a whole range of American foreign policy in the middle east that is protested both here and abroad. There was zero implicit clarity in your supposed distinction between foreign and domestic protest.

    I was going to dispute this statement, and underscore the fact that, though you profess to love America, you have no idea what the founding ideals of the country are about, or the natural rights affirmed by our Constitution, not granted by it, which apply to all people, universally, not just here in the US.

    But instead, I'll just wish Texas luck with its secession.
     
  25. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    Ok.

    You win.

    Feel better now?
     
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