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Proving a date?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by backbencher, Feb 9, 2006.

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  1. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    Folks,

    Ok, I've got Stag's certificate of virginity and built my AR-15 pistol. Now, how do I document my pistol build so that 15 years from now I can pull out my pictures & say, see, this picture predates my receipt for this buttstock, so I built it as a pistol 1st?

    Smiling pictures of me w/ the pistol in front of a building that is no longer there, or someone who is no longer there? Perhaps I should visit a hospice & take pics? Thank God we don't have gun registration in Texas, but how do I protect myself down the road?

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
  2. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Pic of the firearm with a newspaper.:D
     
  3. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Hmph. Good reason to keep back copies of newspapers.
     
  4. Polishrifleman

    Polishrifleman Member

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    How about Video footage of something noteworthy on the TV and the subject. It might not give the date exactly but would produce a window of time.
     
  5. BrokenPaw

    BrokenPaw Member

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    Take a picture of it with on a newspaper, and then get that photo notarized. Or mail it to yourself (for the postmark) and don't open it unless/until you have to prove the dates.

    The newspaper establishes that you had it after a certain date, and the notary or the postmark establishes that you had it before another date. (which is the important part, here).

    -BP
     
  6. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    Broken Paw,

    Postmark w/ pics in an unopened envelope the best yet, methinks. Of course, 20 years from now when the envelope is opened, your haircut's gonna look pretty silly. Perhaps a windowed envelope of a picture of the gun on a newspaper? Now what dyes should we use - or should the picture be engraved on the receiver? ; )

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
  7. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    Take the pic with someone really old.
     
  8. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    Kreig,

    That would work, but I might have to off 'em before I purchase my buttstock. How's your wife fixed for life insurance? : )

    What we're trying to do here is fix the pictures of the pistol build BEFORE a particular date - the date on the receipt of my buttstock when I purchase it. I don't want to have to wait years for a grandparent to die - though for $500 I guess I could get a nag horse - but now we're more than a new receiver cost again.

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
  9. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    SFAIK, the unopened letter is an accepted proof.

    Art
     
  10. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Trouble is that an unopened letter doesn't prove anything. An unsealed envelope can be mailed to oneself and anything can be stuffed into it at a later date and the envelope sealed.
     
  11. 308win

    308win Member

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    Take the picture and get it notarized. Take it one step farther and file a copy with the county recorder.
     
  12. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Try it. I think you'll find that the envelope flap or the envelope itself gets mangled if you try that.

    And, anyway, this situation would undercut such an objection. Someone attacking the sealed, postmarked letter with those contents would have to argue that the envelope was prepared years fifteen years earlier by someone who knew that he would take the action he wanted to document fifteen years later. I would really appreciate being given advance notice of such an attack so I could be in the courtroom to hear it. I'd much rather be on a jury listening to it, of course, but I suppose that's too much to expect from life.
     
  13. ksnecktieman

    ksnecktieman Member

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    I see a simple answer to this. Take it to your local pd, and register it as a pistol, and make copies of the registration for the future.

    If you insist on not registering it, get a couple of your buddies to write a letter, and sign in front of a notary that they saw, handled, or fired it on a specific date?
     
  14. HankB

    HankB Member

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    As long as you have Stag's "certificate of virginity," wouldn't the burden of proof be on the bad guys to prove you didn't have it built up as a pistol way back when? Especially if you have dated receipts for your purchase of the pistol components? :confused:
     
  15. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    ksnecktieman,

    In Texas, you CAN'T register a pistol, or any other firearm. There's no mechanism for it, and the local PD would be asking what crack you were smoking.

    HankB,

    You don't have to use "pistol" components to build a pistol. The regular buffer tube works fine, as does a 16" bbl. The only thing that makes it a pistol is the "designed for one-handed operation" so all the pics will be of me holding the 6 lb homebuilt w/ one hand : )

    308win,

    That sounds good.

    Thanks for everyone's input!

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
  16. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Not if the flap is tucked into the envelope. And I did try it.
     
  17. pcf

    pcf Member

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    On block 16 and 27 of your 4473 there should be a box checked for "handgun" and firearm type, respectively. Get a copy of the 4473 from your dealer. If you the 4473 says that a long gun/rifle was transfered to you, you have a rifle receiver. If you put a barrel under 16" inches on it you've created a SBR. Doesn't matter if it's the first or 50th barrel.

    If you purchased it as a handgun, it's a handgun. If the first thing you want to do is throw a buttstock and 36" barrel on it, it's still a handgun.

    If you were transfered a handgun on the 4473, keep your Certificate from Stag Arms and your 4473 and you'll be fine. If you were transfered a rifle, I do not know if there is a remedial process to get that corrected.

    Edited: The "originally built" thing is to prevent people from circumventing payment of the SBR/AOW tax stamp. That way clever people don't chop the barrel and stock, on say, a Marlin 1894, and then claim or transfer it back to themselves as a handgun.
     
  18. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    pcf,

    As I understand it, if I build the bare receiver into a rifle 1st, then it must always remain a rifle, no matter what the 4473 says. Thus, I must build it into a pistol 1st, to preserve the "pistolness" of the receiver. You seem to have a different understanding - what is the source of your information?

    My 4473 says pistol.

    Car Knocker/ Mr Hairless,

    What if we're very clever & place the address on the backside of the envelope - thus securing the postmark over the edge of the flap/envelope join? : ) I'm beginning to think securing the services of a Notary Public will be the easiest.

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
  19. pcf

    pcf Member

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    BenchBacker,
    Honestly that's the first time I've heard of "originally built" refered to in the manner you have. Another letter to write to the ATF........ Definitely err on the side of caution. Once a firearm is original sold whatever it is sold as is what the firearm is...or so I thought.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2006
  20. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    pcf -

    Think about your 1911 pistol - you remove the slide, and insert the lower frame in a Mech-Tech upper w/ 16" bbl & shoulder stock - it's a rifle now. Remove the shoulder stock & long bbl, put the slide & 5" bbl back on, it's a pistol again. Take a T/C Contender, pop in a 16" bbl, and then you can put a shoulder stock on it. Gonna toss out all those $200 12" bbls you have? Probably not. You're gonna remove that shoulder stock, then swap bbls.

    Come to the AR-15 - as long as it starts life as a pistol, it can always be converted back. BATFE disagrees w/ this, but then they lost the Supreme Court case to Thompson Center (T/C) back in 1992, and like all government bureaucrats (like myself) they don't like to admit when they made a mistake.

    http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=169

    Sorry, that answer was to a question you didn't ask @ all. My mistake.

    Gig 'em,

    backbencher
     
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