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PsyOps campaign : Definition of Democracy or Democracy Propaganda

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Sylvan-Forge, Oct 16, 2006.

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  1. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    If I hear the word democracy used to define America one more time, I'm going to implode!

    And of spreading it around, as if it is some kind of cure that only we are capable of dispensing, is like saying we will best serve the world by giving them a rotting disease!

    The word “democracy” was never used by the founders in writing the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, or the Bill of Rights.


    America is a Constitutional Republic. Not a democracy.

    Democracy = Mob Rule

    Democracy is only a means to divide and conquer.




    “A republic, if you can keep it.”
    "...and to the Republic, for which it stands..."


    Rant off.
     
  2. GunnySkox

    GunnySkox Member

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    It is not a pure democracy, but it is a representative republic, which is a form of rule by the people, as opposed to rule by an individual or small group. The people in the US call the shots, just indirectly by electing representatives. Thus, democracy, as opposed to monarchy, oligarchy, or anarchy.

    Surely, whining about words will win us the next election.

    ~GnSx
     
  3. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    Gunny,
    Don't you feel it is important to be clear in definition?

    Look, I think alot of folks use the word, and mean well enough by it.
    I am personally guilty of saying it in the past.
    But, I am trying to point out that this usage is wrong and muddies waters.

    I am also saying it is being used for advantage by enemies within and without. PsyOps.
    You know, communist manifesto and of repeating a lie enough times..

    So I take your jab at my "whining" to mean you use the word incorrectly ;)
    You are forgiven if you use the word correctly forwith :p

    Power to the people and all that.
     
  4. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.""

    - U.S. Department of State site
     
  5. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    Indeed JohnBT.
    A bit frightening IMO.


    A little contrast to history ...

    TRAINING MANUAL
    WAR DEPARTMENT,
    No. 2000-25
    WASHINGTON, November 30, 1928.

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/tm/tm_2000-25/tm_2000-25.htm



    Democracy: A government of the masses.


    Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.


    Results, in mobocracy.


    Attitude toward property is communistic — negating property rights.


    Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.


    Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Republic:


    Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.


    Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.


    Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.


    A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.


    Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy.


    Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ...special emphasis being given to the fact that the United States is a Republic, not a democracy.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  6. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    It's all in the definition, and I think 007 is getting a litte carried away. A democracy is a system of government where the power is vested in the people. There are numerous forms of democratic governments including republics, constitutional monarchies and others. Pure democracies, where EVERY decision is made by the people, COULD devolve into mob rule, but it would still depend on the governing documents. I don't think it is our republican form of government that prevents mob rule, but rather our Constitution. Pure democracy exists in the United States in the form of Propositions and other referenda that can be placed on ballots where the people vote directly for legislation, rather than their represetatives. What prevents mob rule (for example a state voting back in slavery because they have a majority who want it) is the Constitution and the Supreme Court that will invalidate the results of such a vote. I think your focus in in the wrong place. We do live in a democracy, and it takes the form of a republic.
     
  7. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    We don't have mob rule, we have lob rule.

    Lob, as in lobbyist.
     
  8. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    I'm not frightened by the dictionary definition.

    I ran across this interesting quote and thought you could use it. John

    ""Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive."

    Westbrook Pegler: New York Journal American, January 25th and 26th, 1951, under the titles- Upholds Republic of U.S. Against Phony Democracy, Democracy in the U.S. Branded Meaningless"
     
  9. DRMMR02

    DRMMR02 member

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    America is an oligarchy. The Supreme Court has the ability to make the final decisions, and frequently does.
     
  10. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    DRM, I've thought about this a bunch. The way the check and balance was supposed to work is that if the SC did something no one else liked, the Executive could refuse to enforce their rulings, and the Legislative could write a law specifically overruling the SC. In fact, a past President, I can't remember who (sorry) said, and I'm paraphrasing badly, of the SC "they have their ruling, now let them enforce it."

    It seems these days, however, that the other 2 branches have become afraid of the SC. Perhaps the balance will be restored soon, but I agree that the SC seems to have too much power in our present system.
     
  11. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    I think this should read :
    Unfortunately we now live in a democracy, and it takes it's form within the tattered shell of our former constitutional republic.

    But I digress.


    The New American fleshes out the argument better than I can :
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/11-06-2000/vo16no23_republic.htm

    I believe we must be especially weary of manifold and arbitrary use of language in America, especially as it pertains to the corruption of important meanings and concepts within the topics of freedom, government, law, morality, history, metrology, etc.
    Beware doublespeak.
    Comedic references, plays on word, etc. need not be tethered so.

    I rest my case here.
     
  12. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    If it walks like a duck.......
     
  13. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    Zrex,
    Care to elaborate?
     
  14. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    oo7, The New America article is good reading. Thanks for linking to it.
     
  15. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    JohnBT,
    Thanks for passing the ammo :)

    WayneConrad,
    Sure thing. Glad you liked it. :)
     
  16. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    007 that was an awesome article. it shoulda been submitted to a wider sources than religated to the internet. ( as ironic as that sounds) i think less people who dont know the democracy vs republic issue will see it here than in printed source
     
  17. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    If you liked that Westbrook Pegler quote you'll likely get a kick out of what he said about Eleanor Roosevelt: She is a menace, unscrupulous as the truth, vain, cynical, all with a pretense of exaggerated kindness and human feeling which deceives millions of gullible persons.

    Hint: I quoted Pegler as a joke.

    John
     
  18. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    The United States is what it is, regardless what you call it. For those who choose to be pendantic, it's a republic with a representitave democratic government.

    We choose that form of governemnt because no one has ever been able to answer Juvenal's question
    Or as James Madison put it,
     
  19. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    Vern, Is the form of government we have now, whatever you call it, the same as the form of the government that the constitution inaugurated, whatever you call it?
     
  20. scurtis_34471

    scurtis_34471 Member

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    Language does matter and people are stupid. I remember getting in an argument with a hippy-dippy art teacher in high school. She said we need to vote for Democrats, because they want Democracy for America and Republicans are trying to turn the country into a republic. She got very upset when I calmly explained that the United States was a Constitutional Republic. That was 18 years ago, but I don't think much has changed since then.
     
  21. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yup, same-old, same-old. A representative democracy.
     
  22. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Here's the way I look at it:

    In a pure democracy, everything is voted on. Should you have a right to keep and bear arms? Let's vote on it! Everything is voted on. This is a horrible system.

    In our system, very very few things are directly decided on by the people. One example is school levies. But for 99% of things, we elect people to vote for us. We call these people representatives. And this system of electing people to vote for us is called a republic.

    But are we just a republic? In a regular 'ol republic, our representatives could decide that the people no longer have a right to keep and bear arms. So I think you'll agree a regular 'ol republic sucks.

    An even better system is a constitutional republic. This is where we elect representatives to vote for us (i.e. a republic), but the representatives are limited by a constitution.

    Hence we are a constitutional republic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2006
  23. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    Has it become more democratic and less representitive over time?

    I'm thinking of: Widespread state laws binding the votes of presidential electors (originally, the electors were supposed to deliberate and decide amongst themselves).

    And also: The amendment that caused senators to be elected by the people rather than the state assemblies.
     
  24. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Did you convert her?

    Suppose you had said, "We are a constitutional republic, with a representative democratic form of government." You could have gone on to explain that the Republican Party was formed in opposition to slavery, and the "Democratic" Party defended slavery.

    In other words, explain to her that words are only words, and the parties are what they are.
     
  25. scurtis_34471

    scurtis_34471 Member

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    That would have been a great discussion if she had not gotten violently angry and sent me off to "learn history." That just proves that having a degree does not mean that you aren't stupid.
     
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