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PTR....for what purpose?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Archangel14, May 9, 2013.

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  1. GCMkc

    GCMkc Member

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    I can see why people rave about the FAL. It's definitely on my bucket list of rifles to buy. Come to think of it, I've only handled one or two FAL's in my entire life (all 25 years of it). Most LGS's don't have them and I've only held a couple at gun shows. Would you recommend a DSArms FAL? Will they run steel cased ammo? Barrel length recommendations?

    Sorry, I am getting off subject OP.
     
  2. The_Armed_Therapist

    The_Armed_Therapist Member

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    You misunderstood me. No AR15 bashing here; it's an amazing tool. Just saying that because something is "sufficient" isn't a reason to not consider something that could be even better.

    The comparison was to battle rifles, was it not? Ultra lightweight hunting rifles are a whole different tool with a whole different purpose.
     
  3. Rudedog

    Rudedog Member

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    I was a soldier once and have carried everything from M60 MG on down (in weight).
    There are a lot of good points brought up here.
    I have experience with the previously mentioned rifles. My favorite one was the FAL. However the PTR (HK) will fire and keep firing any brand of ammo you want to shoot in it, at least from what I remember of some old HK G3s I have shot.

    The .223 (5.56mm) as a military round was a compromise brought about for the need to carry a lot of ammo for a lightweight weapon in a jungle environment where engagements ranges were relatively short. It will of course kill people. It makes a really good close quarters round. Yes lugging a nine pound, 44 inch long M14 around in the jungle must have been tiring. Pity the machinegunner.

    Nowadays the .223 is proving to be lacking in range and knockdown power in the current war against armed insurgents. Therefore M14s/21s were brought back and in limited numbers the FN MK17 in 7.62 x 51mm is being used. So the "battle rifle" is back.

    I myself have an AK type "assault rifle" for the purposes of "home-land" defense and others. If I was going to buy a full on battle rifle I would seriously consider the PTR.
    Oh yeah, I had an AR but sold it, never really did like that dirty firing platform anyways.
     
  4. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    There is no such thing as "knockdown power" from a shoulder-fired rifle. It's quite literally a scientific law.

    When I was infantry originally, I marched with a 35-lb 60mm mortar in my arms. When I came back from OSUT ITB (Infantry Basic), I found that all rifles were lighter...but the HK-91 was still badly balanced.

    I took an HK-91 deer hunting. Once.

    My buddy Byron, may he rest in peace, had owned a HK-91 for years. After I met him, he also bought a M1A. After shooting my FN-FAL, he eventually bought mine (I was buying another), and sold the HK-91 he'd owned for over 20 years. He kept the M1A.

    The HK-91 may be reliable, but has horrible ergonomics and is badly balanced, especially when compared to a standard FN-FAL. The Germans wanted to make the FN-FAL in Germany (the Germans call the FN-FAL the G1), but the Belgians refused to sell them the license. The Germans then went on to build the G3/HK-91, which was based on the Spanish CETME- but always remember that even the Germans preferred the FN-FAL.

    John
     
  5. fireside44

    fireside44 Member

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    No on recommending a DSArms. They are a lousy company to deal with and their QC on small parts has been badly lacking. For instance, broken firing pins and other DSA manufactured parts. They also turned out a run of receivers that were out of spec beyond what their customer base had come to expect. An early Grayslake DSA model is highly regarded, but current DSA has some black marks.

    Steel cased ammo is a hot topic and central to many a flame war over at the FAL files. Some guys shoot it all the time, others have had kabooms with it. Personally I avoid it because I cannot afford to replace my rifle at this time. Prior to the run on ammo they did have sub-$10 a box Monarch brass cased for blasting. The main problem right now is feeding one if you aren't set up with surplus 7.62x51 or reloading components.

    Barrel length? I built a Para so I went with a shorter length for reasons of compactness. It's said you lose 50fps (I think) for every inch you cut off. Mine is somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 or 17 inches, I never made an exact measurement but function is excellent with factory ammo. I love all lengths myself but an 18" or so seems to be thought of as the most even tradeoff between performance and compactness.

    If you really want a good rifle I would go to the FAL Files, meet some guys, and browse the marketplace. In the madness FAL prices remained more stable and some VERY nice weapons went for very reasonable prices. I recommend buying a good kit built weapon on a DSA or Coonan receiver through someone with good feedback on the forum. Some nice guys to deal with over there.

    True, but there is perceived and real world effectiveness that people describe generically as knockdown power.
     
  6. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    I couldn't say, as I'm not a soldier. But I have to imagine that in an actually "battle" scenario, a .308 shooting rifle is likely superior. But for hunting, plinking, and self defense in the type of scenarios most of us would likely encounter (or "unlikely"), an AR 15 would be ideal.
     
  7. Old_Gun_Hand

    Old_Gun_Hand Member

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    Why a Glock 17 with 17 round mags? I do not know anyone who goes through life just buying things strictly according to need and no more or less. That is why our supermarkets are so big compared to some other countries where all you can buy is the single State sponsored brand. God Bless America and the many choices we have.
     
  8. The_Armed_Therapist

    The_Armed_Therapist Member

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    ++1
     
  9. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Archangel, I am a soldier, and I've deployed to Afghanistan for a total of 22 months. At the ranges the 5.56mm runs out of steam, you kill the enemy with crew-served weapons, anyway. I've fired at the enemy a LOT- always at over 1000 meters. The only people I've heard extol the virtues of 7.62x51mm for Afghanistan have always been armchair commandos, not real infantry.

    John
    06-07
    11-12
     
  10. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    To the OP: people have different aesthetic and physical tolerances. I knew someone who did track and stalk deer hunting (no feeders or stands) with a surplus m1 garand. 9.5+ pounds and iron sights but it worked for him. PTR would be about the same.

    Other people use them as range toys, wall art, talismans, etc..

    I don't have one, but I have rifles that are more absurd. I mostly use them as safe weights, to make it harder to move my RSC, but I wouldn't hesitate to take one hunting, to a match, to training, or just to a range for some fun. Not to mention emergency uses that hopefully will never come up. ;)
     
  11. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    JShirley, thank you for your most excellent service. You are better than most.

    So, I want to hear from you, because I think your opinion is most persuasive. For an all around defense rifle, anticipating a kind of civil disobedience scenario (post-earthquake bandits roaming the neighborhood type of thing), am I correct to think that an AR in 5.56 is all I really need? ?

    Thanks!
     
  12. splithoof

    splithoof Member

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    The PTR-91 is for those who don't/can't/won't find an original HK-91. The design is just about the closest thing to a disposable rifle as can be found (perhaps only second to a WW2 Greasegun), and can be discarded when finished with.
     
  13. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Archangel,

    Thank you.

    Yes, out to 400 meters (more with optic, careful ammo selection, and a good barrel), the AR-15 in a 16-20" barrel is all you need, so long as you don't need to shoot things weighing over 250 lbs. If you anticipate being over-run with herds of bears, a heavier caliber would be in order. :)

    For most people, I suggest a "disaster rifle" that is a sturdy bolt-action with a low fixed power or low to mid power adjustable optic. Something in the 7.62x39mm to 7mm Rem Mag power range will repel all but the heaviest boarding parties, and be useful in the woods, too. Of course, if you're not a hunter, just get an AR-15.

    John
     
  14. LNK

    LNK Member

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    1. Doesn't flute the brass.
    2. Last shot hold open, (on metric, but can be installed on inch).

    That is about it.....I like them both, but prefer the FAL..

    LNK
     
  15. Rudedog

    Rudedog Member

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    Dear JShirley (Administrator),
    I appreciate your service too. Not to take anything away from you, but...
    I have been to Afghanistan as well. Infantry operations has definately has change over the decades. From what you say (and from what I've seen over there) it sounds like you are confined to your firebase or COP and lob mortar rounds or bursts of crew served machinegun fire at specks over a 1000 meters away. That is not effective.

    Well if you were with a unit that uses FM 7-8 as a base of operations and left your firebase , COP or MRAP and learned how to manuever, close-in and kill the enemy on foot then you would appreciate the destructiveness of the 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 cartridges. In the end it will come down to the people that carry the rifle and shoot it out, and if you were ever in that situation you would not belittle the 7.62.
     
  16. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    I'm unlikely to visit Afghanistan, and if I ever go it certainly won't be to play Soviet Army 2.0. But I can read. Being a frequent reader I am exposed to a lot of dubious propaganda, including some that is relevant to - is perhaps at the center of - this clash of fobbits and armchairs.

    An excerpt:

    "U.S. Army data ... reveals that more than half of the war’s small arms engagements are now beyond 500 meters, with the enemy employing heavier weapons and then withdrawing before air support or artillery fire can arrive."
    http://www.americanrifleman.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=3163&cid=4

    Of course the purpose of that blitz, which involved everyone from the AP to the NRA, was to convince the Party to pay for new stocks for some old rifles, but, as with most of these efforts, there was collateral damage. Specifically, it influenced perceptions of the effectiveness of the 5.56 in Afghanistan. Sigh.

    So the problem now is that we have JShirley on one side saying one thing, and many news and propaganda outlets echoing exactly the opposite message. It raises questions.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  17. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    Anyways, the PTR 91 is a whole lot of fun. I have shot prairie dogs on the run with mine at 400 yards. If I can see it, chances are I can hit it. It is absolutely reliable. For a really good time call 1-800-PTR-91! LOL.

    As far as a rifle to be used in anger, I think that folks tend to think very highly of the rifle that they carry into harms' way, and with which they are really familiar. These are lifetime impressions, near as I can tell.

    With 155 grain Amax bullets and a near maximum load of H4895, mine has been nothing short of stellar. And I can play "dress up" with it if I should wish, almost as much as do the boys with the AR 15's. You can change the stocks and fore ends, you can change the lowers, you can add bipods, brakes, flash hiders... scopes and optics... a neat little 22 long rifle kit... These sorts of things are fun to collect in their own right, and it is important to "accessorize!" :D

    Three things I did to mine which made it much more enjoyable for my uses are the port buffer so that recovered brass may be reloaded, a paddle magazine release, which is IMO so important that the factory should install these, and a trigger job. Bill Springfield did this trigger and I cannot say enough good about his work.
     
  18. Rudedog

    Rudedog Member

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    Stubbicatt - amen
    Archangel14 - You will not go wrong with your AR for your intended purposes.
    All- any of the previuous mentioned 7.62x51 battle rifles have their advantages and disadvantages and any of them will work for what they are made for.
    Remember a .22 LR will kill most anything with proper shot placement, but is it the right cartridge?
     
  19. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    It's generally better to define a purpose and then select the weapon but like the AR, AK, FAL, SCAR and a while slew of other rifles available to civilians it's original purpose was combat. However, most of us who own such weapons do so for one or more of the following: cool factor, plinking, collecting, hunting, competition, home defense, etc.
     
  20. MJ

    MJ Member

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    You can't reload the brass is an old wives tale.

    ffcc3a60.gif
     
  21. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    I agree with MJ, I reload for the rifle with no issue. I use a port buffer to deflect the empties without putting that "smiley" on them, but even so, the case heads take a beating from the ejector and the forces involved.

    Using .mil brass, I get 4 or 5 reloadings before I opt to place them in the recycle bin.
     
  22. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Dear Rudedog (Member),
    I appreciate your service. Not to take anything away from you, but my copy of FM 7-8 emphasizes "close combat", beginning with the first sentence of Chapter 1, "Fundamentals of Tactics". Continuing one with part of the 5th and 6th sentences: close combat is callous and unforgiving. Its dimensions are measured in minutes and meters. That would seem to rule out long shots...like I said.

    I suppose I should tell the 3rd and 7th Group Special Forces soldiers that I was with that they didn't know how to fight a war. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully. I didn't "belittle" the 7.62x51mm, I said it wasn't necessary as an individual weapon for warfighting.

    Now, with a historical perspective, I can tell you that killing the enemy with support weapons has always been the preferred method. I suggest you read FM 7-8 again, especially 1-20, 1-70, 1-95, and all of Section 4. Let me help you with the first sentence of Section 4: The Army's preferred method of fighting is combined arms. Helpfully illustrated with pictures (Figures 1-8, 1-9, and 1-10), that section then illustrates how using indirect and direct fires, maneuver, and use of terrain is how we are SUPPOSED to fight. In other words, killing the enemy with massed firepower rather than individual weapons is the US Army way.

    So, yeah. I'm pretty familiar with FM 7-8, but it doesn't sound like you are.

    John
     
  23. Rudedog

    Rudedog Member

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    Good deal John, just checking.
    I'll stick with 7.62 though.
     
  24. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Fair enough. I think the 7.62x51mm is a much more versatile caliber than 5.56x45mm.
     
  25. MJ

    MJ Member

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    I said it wasn't necessary as an individual weapon for warfighting.

    I think that would depend on your war wouldn't it?

    DSCF0047_zps272031ef.gif

    ...MJ...
    ee27d9b6.gif
     
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