Did you ever try the 499 abutment in the RR? Are the OD's the same, so it could fit correctly in the RR? Would it be possible to use a RR piston and air tube in the 499? Just thinking out loud. Thx!The photo below shows the powerplant of the "the most accurate BB gun in the world"- the single shot Daisy Model 499B Champion. The part on the left is the ‘Abutment Plug Assembly’ (both sides shown), next is the ‘Shot Tube’. Below them is the ‘Plunger Assembly’. And under the plunger assembly is the test target that was included w/the shot tube- just like the “big boys”!
It’s apparent the shot tube assembly consists of a much shorter shot tube than the length of the 499B gun itself would indicate. The black plastic piece on the right end is a funnel to make muzzle-loading the single BB easy to do. Also interesting to note, the 499B does not use an air tube. The combination of no air tube along w/the lower spring rate accounts for the low velocity of the 499B (~240 fps), but at 5 meters high velocity isn’t necessary for great accuracy, apparently. Also noteworthy is the shot tube threads into the abutment assembly using fine threads (5/16-24)- no air loss and makes for a rigid assembly, all in all. As a point of reference, the Model 25 and the removable shot tube lever guns like the early Red Ryder use a coarse 7/16-14 thread. And interesting that the Model 25 shot tube screws right in to the old style Model 104 I have. Leaves the end of the shot tube unsupported because it's longer than the barrel shroud of the M104, but it shoots fine.
The 499B shot tube has a larger OD than the Red Ryder, so adapting the 499B shot tube to the Red Ryder’s shot tube assembly will not be a 'plug-and-play' deal. There’s a slim chance I can use the 499B abutment in place of the Red Ryder abutment- if that’s doable the rest will be easy. I’ll know more once I’m finished w/the accuracy testing and can pull the shot tube from one of my Red Ryders.
Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy
As far as the 499 shroud ID/ RR abutment OD, they're the same. But while the 499 abutment would fit the RR, there's currently no shot tube as good as the 499 that's long enough to work in the RR w/o cutting down the shroud, so we're back to starting w/the shorter model 105 Buck platform for such a hybrid. But it would be a heck of a lot cheaper to make a single shot model 105 equipped w/a 499 piston, shot tube and abutment (~ $30) than it is to piece together a complete 499 (somewhere around $85-$90)! And if I knew then what I do now, that's exactly what I'd have done. One downside to a 105/499 is the Buck has no adjustable rear sights and that would need addressing.
As for turning the 499 into a repeater (a 499 repeater being very close to my 'ideal' Daisy lever action BB repeater, at least in theory) the things I keep coming back to are the need for the inefficient RR type abutment so it would actually BE a repeater, and the need for an air tube to channel the compressed air further down the shot tube to avoid blowing the majority if it out through the BB feed port/BB viewing port. So in the end, a RR piston and air tube in the 499 would perform much like a RR.
As for turning the 499 into a repeater (a 499 repeater being very close to my 'ideal' Daisy lever action BB repeater, at least in theory) the things I keep coming back to are the need for the inefficient RR type abutment so it would actually BE a repeater, and the need for an air tube to channel the compressed air further down the shot tube to avoid blowing the majority if it out through the BB feed port/BB viewing port. So in the end, a RR piston and air tube in the 499 would perform much like a RR.
I figured you had gotten to that conclusion. That is exactly the progression that is logical. I spend about 5 hrs/day of windshield time, so a great deal of contemplation occurs. I have reread this thread and picked up more helpful info! Thanks for your input!
Another thought. One of the posts mentioned "pool cue" effect of the air tube. That's why I wondered if using a RR piston and air tube in the 499 would make a difference. Certainly in the RR, it serves to block off the bb feed and get most of the air down the shot tube. Might be interesting to know if it has any "cue" effect, or that the air being accelerated through the air tube behind the bb increases mv. Just some thoughts. I need to try out my chronograph! Also need to place a daisy order. Life.... Money ....On we go!
Well, I can say w/o reservation that we've compiled more info and photos in this thread than there is anywhere else on the 'net. One problem is the thread has evolved as we learned, that is to say there's several dead ends, wrong suppositions and knuckleballs thrown in, that wouldn't be there if the thread were to have been written after the fact.
Earlier, flightsimmer mentioned he'd like to pick the wheat from the chaff to condense the thread into a more manageable form. I've considered doing this as well, but it doesn't look like we're through yet! So if I ever do, it'll come later when I'm reasonably sure most of the bases have been covered. Until then, anyone wanting info will need to do some serious reading! That said, it might be possible to add a 'table of contents- slash- index' to the first post to point to specific info...
Earlier, flightsimmer mentioned he'd like to pick the wheat from the chaff to condense the thread into a more manageable form. I've considered doing this as well, but it doesn't look like we're through yet! So if I ever do, it'll come later when I'm reasonably sure most of the bases have been covered. Until then, anyone wanting info will need to do some serious reading! That said, it might be possible to add a 'table of contents- slash- index' to the first post to point to specific info...
It's a good read! I'm certainly not finished, it will take more time. You may be able to publish and retire. Devote the rest of your life to ongoing research!
Haha- heard that!
I read somewhere that the pool cue effect of the air tube gives the BB up to an 80 fps 'shot'. It wasn't clear how that number was derived, but what I could do just for the fun of it would be to assemble a gun w/o the piston attached, but with the air tube. Then shoot it to see what the contribution the air tube actually makes, just by kinetic energy.
Another thing I've wondered about: The plunger spring strength and the length of the air tube has a bearing on the timing of where the BB is in the shot tube versus when the compressed air charge is released. If the BB is near the muzzle before the compressed air charge is released, some of the charge may be wasted- as in, the BB has left the barrel before the full charge was released. Making the air tube shorter should offset this- but the most that could be removed is something less than 3/8”, else double feeds could happen.
All in all though, it seems the air tube is a necessary evil for a repeater made in this configuration. It's sure not needed to add velocity, as shown by the 499 using the RR spring.
All I need is a university grant and I'm in bidnez!
This has turned into a popular thread, though. Over the entire life of the thread, we’re running just under 70 views a day. After mentioning this thread elsewhere, we’ve had brief spikes up to nearly 700 views in a day. Not too shabby...
Last edited:
flightsimmer
Member
A thought has occurred to me, that in itself may be dangerous.
Anyway, anyone who has enough knowledge of how the spring operated Daisy or other brands operate might be able to build a high performance BB rifle from off the shelf parts.
Maybe some Daisy and or some Crossman and Lowe's or Menard's hardware parts.
Just an idea for those who want more from a BB gun.
Now if you want more power perhaps you could use a Benjamin Sheridan pump air gun with a smooth bore. That would boost you up to roughly 700-750fps or so.
Just some food for thought.
Anyway, anyone who has enough knowledge of how the spring operated Daisy or other brands operate might be able to build a high performance BB rifle from off the shelf parts.
Maybe some Daisy and or some Crossman and Lowe's or Menard's hardware parts.
Just an idea for those who want more from a BB gun.
Now if you want more power perhaps you could use a Benjamin Sheridan pump air gun with a smooth bore. That would boost you up to roughly 700-750fps or so.
Just some food for thought.
When all this was just a vague idea, I had wanted a Daisy lever action repeater BB gun capable of at least 400 fps, having good accuracy. And that's still something I want, but knowing how hard it is to coax MV and accuracy from these Red Ryder type guns, I now realize this may never come to pass. Closest thing so far would be either the RR w/shimmed spring and drilled air tube or the single shot 499 using the RR spring. The modded RR doesn't shoot as fast as I'd like, and the 499 hybrid is a single shot. Close, but no cigar- yet !
Thing is, I'm adamant on the single cocking lever action thing. I do not want to have to pump a pneumatic airgun numerous times to reach my desired MV. And I don't want this gun to need CO2. My Daisy 853 shoots a pellet at nearly 500 fps and would certainly spit out a BB faster than that, plus it's a single stroke (although not a lever action). But it's also a single shot and will never be anything but. Another near miss.
There's a (high $$) Walther CO2 lever action repeater out there, but that's too far from my original plans, and besides I already have CO2 guns including a repeater, although the magazines only hold 9 pellets. And CO2 is not what this gun is about, anyway.
But you do have a valid point. If- and this is a big if- I could get a machinist to mill a stronger plunger tube and a properly configured air tube, OR if I could come up with a good way to work around the shortcomings of those parts (mainly the plunger tube), those things would allow me to use a stronger spring to its full potential. The abutment might need to be pinned in place and the trigger may need beefing up, but those are surmountable problems. At some point the lever pivot in the receiver might need a bushing to help spread the load, but again- these are problems that are more easily solved.
So the saga continues...
Thing is, I'm adamant on the single cocking lever action thing. I do not want to have to pump a pneumatic airgun numerous times to reach my desired MV. And I don't want this gun to need CO2. My Daisy 853 shoots a pellet at nearly 500 fps and would certainly spit out a BB faster than that, plus it's a single stroke (although not a lever action). But it's also a single shot and will never be anything but. Another near miss.
There's a (high $$) Walther CO2 lever action repeater out there, but that's too far from my original plans, and besides I already have CO2 guns including a repeater, although the magazines only hold 9 pellets. And CO2 is not what this gun is about, anyway.
But you do have a valid point. If- and this is a big if- I could get a machinist to mill a stronger plunger tube and a properly configured air tube, OR if I could come up with a good way to work around the shortcomings of those parts (mainly the plunger tube), those things would allow me to use a stronger spring to its full potential. The abutment might need to be pinned in place and the trigger may need beefing up, but those are surmountable problems. At some point the lever pivot in the receiver might need a bushing to help spread the load, but again- these are problems that are more easily solved.
So the saga continues...
Well.... I'm not sure of the physics of the complete air discharge process, but I am reasonably certain that the air is discharged in a constant curve. In other words, as soon as the piston begins to move, air is being discharged, as the piston accelerates to full speed the air is discharged thru the air tube at a faster rate. The rate increases till the piston is stopped by the abutment. I believe the challenge is to have all the air in the chamber discharged at the precise moment the bb leaves the shot tube. Therefore in a perfect world, the volume of the air chamber would be equal to the volume of the shot tube. In reality, due to inefficiency, resistance, etc, the air chamber volume must be larger than that of the shot tube.
I think Englertracing was onto something with the a better fitting air tube with a larger ID. This would minimize the air loss from the bb feed port. It would also get the air down the tube faster. I disagree with his assertion that the air tube seal is not relevant.
I predict that the pool cue effect is negligible. I hope that I'm wrong about that. I like your idea about trying it without a piston seal. This is a variable that needs to be proven or discarded.
My brother "with the nice shop" has a degree in physics, I will pester him with some of this.
As soon as I am able, the time/money thing, I will order the 499 shot tube and some tubing (per Englertracing, thanks for that development"") and continue that line of development.
Crazy idea from the middle of the night. Think about a way to block the bb feed port between shots...
These are all just thoughts. I am interested in feed back. I believe that many of the variables have been touched on by various people through the process. Are there any missing variables?
I've thought about pursuing that route (custom build) in the future. Right now I feel there is more, yet to be gained from the RR development. Thx for your ideas! I know the feeling about thoughts....
@flightsimmer Ihope my reply above didn't come across to you as being dismissive of your idea- that's far from how I see it! I realize I've painted myself into a corner with my desire for my idea of the ideal Daisy, but there's still quite a bit still to be answered regarding what's possible with the platform. But once the RR modding thing reaches a conclusion, doing what you propose sounds like a plan very much worth pursuing.
flightsimmer
Member
I'm sure the Daisy Co. Engineers are very good at what they do considering they may have restrictions like cost to produce and possibly maximum power output (lawyers) and who knows what else.
On the other subject, I believe the rear sight on the latest model 25 is an overall compromise, it works, but could be better.
It does work for me as I focus on the front sight but I wouldn't mind a fiber optic, but then there goes the price.
I don't mind the pump action because I can get off several quick shots without moving it from my shoulder and the spring feed means I can even be pointing it downward and it still feeds a BB.
I was surprised to learn that their now using a small magnet to hold the BB in place inside the barrel instead of a spring like the older models, they would sometimes break or fall out.
My model 25 does seem to have pretty good velocity 330fps but then it's like new and hasn't been shot all that much.
I do like the older lever action guns because you could pour them full of bb's and shoot all week though it did make them heavy in the front, but the one's I had didn't have any way to hold the BB if you pointed it downward.
Oh well, yada, yada, yada.
On the other subject, I believe the rear sight on the latest model 25 is an overall compromise, it works, but could be better.
It does work for me as I focus on the front sight but I wouldn't mind a fiber optic, but then there goes the price.
I don't mind the pump action because I can get off several quick shots without moving it from my shoulder and the spring feed means I can even be pointing it downward and it still feeds a BB.
I was surprised to learn that their now using a small magnet to hold the BB in place inside the barrel instead of a spring like the older models, they would sometimes break or fall out.
My model 25 does seem to have pretty good velocity 330fps but then it's like new and hasn't been shot all that much.
I do like the older lever action guns because you could pour them full of bb's and shoot all week though it did make them heavy in the front, but the one's I had didn't have any way to hold the BB if you pointed it downward.
Oh well, yada, yada, yada.
Thx! I think though that most of the credit goes to you! I just sort of took your ideas and ran with them. Clearly the #25 shot tube made much difference.
I fooled around with the chrono until I was getting mostly speeds and no errors. Bright sunlight but under some tree shade, per the manual. Now want to repeat indoors.
Shenanigans? Surely not. I have no idea what occurred. First shot with very modified 1998, using Daisy(Walmart bb's). I was going to gloat a lot! However.....a one time reading. Still seems pretty good! The avanti bb's made some difference, but not a lot. Not for the price difference.
I'm pretty certain that you are correct that the 499 shot tube will help. If I can maximize the air tube into the shot tube.....who knows?
I think that, then perhaps the spring issue. We shall see!
AJumbo
Member
I'm guessing it stands for "Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 18 years and older." Perhaps German kids have to achieve the age of majority before using airguns.
One thing ive noticed with the PC is that it can be light sensitve, if you build a light system for it and use it inside a room with no flourecents that seems to be the easiest way to get quick reliable readings....so much so thqt i dont check it anymore when i work inside.
AJumbo
Member
I think Daisy used to call that model the Cub. I had one from about age 8 until I traded up to a Crosman 1200. I'd refresh the oil in the seals about once a year, or whenever I felt like I was having to "hold over" too much on long shots. Mama sparrows used to scare their babies by telling them stories about the preternatural lethality of my Cub.
Last edited:
The shenanigans wasn't on you doing anything nefarious
, rather I'd have to believe that it was a anomaly w/the chrono. I do know I've seen uber high- and low- readings from my unit on rare occasions, and if they're ridiculously off I simply delete them. Now, if they repeat w/any sort of frequency, then maybe. But even w/o the 575 fps reading, the rest are nothing short of excellent and are something to be proud of, IMO.Just a thought- do you think there could have been any substance in the barrel that would have dieseled under the rather low-pressure conditions of the Daisy powerplant? It would have to have been the first shot of the string for this to hold water (eta- I see now it was the first shot of the string...), unless you stopped mid-string for a cleaning, etc. And there would have been a noticeably louder report. Now, there are things like starter fluid that will diesel in a 8:1 CR automobile engine for instance. BTW, a lot of guys believe the ether is lit by the spark ignition, and that may sometimes be the case- but you can run an engine w/the ignition disabled as long as the starter will turn the engine over, the engine has compression and someone keeps spritzing starting fluid at the carb intake.
My first 'real' gun was also the Cub. Christmas, 1960. That and my first bicycle were monumental milestones in my childhood and are among my very best memories.
AJumbo
Member
Bingo! Model 102 Cub. Funniest thing; the older ones had decently sculpted plastic stocks, and later ones were the wood "1x4" stocks. I believe I wore out two of these little critters, and was starting on the third when I acquired the Crosman.
IIRC, the Cub could make a sparrow DRT out to 20 yards, and shoot into, but not through, a steel beer can. Zipped right through aluminum cans, wouldn't do more than dent a steel coffee can. We lived on rural acreage and kept chickens, so vermin control (sparrows, small rodents) was serious and entertaining business.
