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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I have another order in w/Daisy. This time it's for a rear sight that is used on the model 953. I do not care for FO sights, but in this case I'm going to make an exception- mainly because the sight is made with the notch forward of the body of the sight. Reason is, on my 499 (which is shooting unbelievably well), the rear sight I'm now using combined w/the location of the mounting tabs on the receiver, puts the sight too close to my eye. I'm hoping the 953 sight will move the notch away far enough that I can focus better- overall there's about a 3" difference (further from my eye) between the two. If it pans out, I can see modifying it to have a narrower notch and do away w/the FO strand.

    Then I can use the sight from the 499 on the 104- like it was intended.

    Rear sight I'm now using:

    [​IMG]


    Model 953 rear sight:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    On the 50th, does the trigger have an anti beartrap? Is the lever metal or plastic? A guy at Daisy Talk forum is restoring one and wanted to know. Thanks.
     
  3. englertracing

    englertracing Member

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    cobalt,
    hinz,
    Im here,
    just been modificating other things......
    mountain bike stuff and sprint car stuff

    checked in a few times to see what you guys have come up with..... but haven't had time to respond

    so i wanted to bring a couple things up,
    my original gun i believe I got it when I was 8 or 10 or 12,
    so the gun would be 1998-2002.... so if you do the math on that im only 26.... not quite old by most standards, but i usually feel pretty old, got a bad shoulder and knee from bmx, mountain biking, and motocross.

    ok back to the gun,

    hinz,
    mine did not come with the bear trap, so somewhere in there say 2000 these guns didn't have bear traps yet.
    when i ordered a new main barrel (because i wanted the sealhead for my original gun)
    1. i noticed the trigger in my non beartrap gun is supported on both sides by sheet metal
    on the bear trap gun the sheet metal on the left side is removed because the bear trap mechanism occupies the space,
    I feel like you might want the older main barrel with both sides of the trigger covered for monster preload
    also my gun came with a seamed barrel :barf:, i have been meaning to put the barrel that came with the new MB in my old gun, but now i need a 499 barrel!

    2. EXCELENT observation on correcting the angle the spring holder contacts the preload spacer!! I love it, i knew the spring holder wasn't straight but i didn't even think to mill an angled slot in my delrin spacer. Ill be doing that shortly after i get some other mill work out of the way

    3. I also thought about changing barrels... even looked for a high end barrel, but found they were all rifled pellet gun stuff and i deemed it unnecessary, but now that you have done it, I find it absolutely Necessary .... Were you able to buy this barrel separately from daisy??



    Now changing gears here,
    when i originally installed the custom air tube i noticed the gun cocked with more friction
    SO, thats why i took apart the abutment and the did the heated thing with the seal
    (if anyone does the heated thing, dont go too far, only a little heat on the tip, and push the rod all the way thorugh so the tail end of the rod cools the seal, dont pull it back out past the hot spot! if you go too far on the heat and or give her the old in out...... you may end up pulling some plastic strings, and leaving a glob of plastic on your rod and a big ol frown! ask me how i know)
    then i filed down the abutment pin and detailed the barrel, made sure my air tube easily slid in and out of the barrel (i had been concerned i tweaked the air tube during mfg)

    so i know i was theoretically back down to stock friction levels on the big air tube......

    but i found something really interesting the other day, haven't investigated it yet
    I was shooting the gun, and the plastic barrel cap flew out???? don't know why, isn't broken or anything.
    heres the interesting part.

    when the gun is not cocked the barrel is thrust upwards in the main barrel hard, almost touching the top of the mb, and if you try to wiggle it or move it towards center its extremely rigid and wants to stay up there

    when cocked, the barrel floats around easily
    could be related to hinz findings on the angle the spring pin imparts, but im thinking that would push the barrel down not up, and likely not this much
    i need to get to the bottom of this, i know its causing friction and robbing FPS

    so im curious if any of you can take your end caps off and see if your barrel stays centered or is binding when uncocked and then relaxing when cocked.
     
  4. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hi engleracing

    A thought on the barrel being free to 'float' when cocked but tight when not: when the gun is uncocked, the plunger is against the abutment with spring pressure. Then when it's cocked, the plunger is backed away from the abutment and there's no pressure against it from the plunger so it's free to move. Most likely that's due to the abutment staking being something less than perfect. If the abutment isn't held in place pretty well, it'll move as you are seeing. The front sight/barrel plug tries to hold the tip of the shot tube in place by the four 'fingers' inside it, so it's in intimate contact w/the shot tube. If movement allowed by a loose abutment was excessive, that could be enough to kick the barrel plug/front sight out of the shroud.At least that's what I think could be happening.

    As for the 499 barrel, it's available under p/n 168338-000 Shot tube $9.00. This is an assembly that includes the shot tube, the abutment and the plastic 'funnel' that fits ion the muzzle end. That's the only way it's available short of buying the entire gun.

    Hopefully hinz will be along to discuss the rest w/you.
     
  5. englertracing

    englertracing Member

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    Cobalt, what's concerning me about the barrel binding is that in the uncooked position the inner barrel is forced quite rigidly, far from centered in the main Barrel
     
  6. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I get that part. What I was suggesting is the gun- uncocked- has the piston pressing against the abutment holding it rigid. When the gun's cocked, the piston is withdrawn from the abutment and it becomes loose. This could happen if the abutment is loose. Please excuse me if I'm misreading the situation...

    Looking at it another way, when the gun is fired, the piston slams into the abutment causing the BB to fire. Then in this condition, the gun is uncocked and the spring is still holding the piston against the abutment causing it to be rigid.
     
  7. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    My latest Daisy order arrived. Above, I mentioned wanting to use the rear sight from the 953 on my 499 in order to get the rear sight notch positioned further from my eye. The way things were when using the Industry-type rear sight, the sight was just too close. Turns out the 953 rear sight cured the problem nicely, and for $3.00 the price was right! I don't ordinarily use FO sights but that's the only option for these. I plan to sight the gun in w/the sights as-is and shoot it for awhile before deciding what changes are needed, but I'm leaning towards squaring the bottom of the rear sight notch (it's now rounded) to give a better sight picture w/the post insert in the 499 globe front sight. As far as the FO strand goes, a simple fix is a sharpie to black the dots out, or the FO can be removed and the holes filled in. But until I shoot it for awhile I'm still undecided on exactly what I'll do.

    Top photo is how it looked w/the too-close Industry rear sight. Middle is how it looks w/the 953 rear sight mounted. The bottom photo is the 953 sight superimposed over the Industry sight to show the relative change in the position of the rear notch. I was relieved that the front sight height matches up fine to the 953 rear sight.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Chris USA

    Chris USA Member

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  9. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hey Chris!

    Glad the 499's still doing well for you. Mine is, too- I grin every time I let one fly from it! Ain't nothing quite like an accurate, hard hitting Daisy lever BB gun, IMHO.

    IIRC the last accuracy testing I did was w/the 499 after changing springs. Then, I was using the 5899 peep sights and I haven't used them enough to get comfortable w/them. Even so, my best group so far was done w/them. The biggest reason I changed from peep to open sights is the peep sight doesn't do well for me in anything but ideal lighting. As it gets close to dusk my BY hanging targets get too hard to locate through the peeps w/o a lot of concentration. I also shoot off-hand almost exclusively, and I do a lot of woods walking on my property and I find open sights are the best option for me under these conditions. I do use red dots, currently I have them on my Crosman 2400 carbine, Ruger Mark pistol and a Daisy 74 CO2 repeater. I occasionally use scopes but they have similar downsides as the peep sights for me.

    I believe hinz57 has done more recent accuracy testing w/his hybrid Daisy, and I'm guessing he'll be doing more as time permits. I believe he's still looking at his options as far as sights goes but he does have a rail installed so he can mount a scope. I'm looking forward to seeing what his gun is capable of- we already know it's an animal as far as MV goes!

    I had started researching butt pads and other schemes for lengthening the LOP of my 499 (and I will eventually get back to it), but to be honest I got sidetracked somewhere along the way. I currently have my 853 apart for trigger mods, just finished refinishing a sporter stock for it that I got from Numrich to replace the big ol' MC stock I ordered it with. Changed stocks for much the same reason that I cited for using open sights- offhand shooting in the woods. Then there's the CP-1M CO2 pistol I just put back together after doing some more work on it (BStaley mod, polished tube ID, polished hammer & sear hook, added a 2nd. hammer spring inside the factory spring), haven't even tested it yet plus still have the grip to reshape and refinish. The 2400 has a power adjuster and extended probe sitting here waiting to be installed, plus other mods I want to do to it to extend the shot count and hopefully improve the MV, too. The 499 probably will need a little more work on the rear sight, plus it needs to be tested for accuracy again, I have three different wide-frame Daisys here that are apart for work, I need to put the sight that I just took off the 499 onto my little 104, and the list goes on!

    It's a good "problem" to have, don't get me wrong!
     
  10. Chris USA

    Chris USA Member

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    Cobalt,

    All in all,.... quite amazing with everything you guys are doing. FYI,.... a quick 1" added LOP is the Limbsaver butt pads. Thing is.. even the small is too small for the small guns. I use a med. on the LGU and a large on the TX200 and the Maximus. I highly recommend them on adult rifles after trying other brands.... just pay close attention to the sizing chart. Yup... woods walking and off hand sounds as if opens would work better.

    Best of luck going forward,.... check back in a week or so. 4x10's, M-TH is killer. By Fri,.... I am a whooped pup.
     
  11. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    All, got very side tracked with life. Cobalt, my brother drilled a couple more air tubes for me at 7/64". He asked if I wanted to try 1/8". I don't have any more to try drilling out. We did ruin one by drilling smaller and then going to 7/64. Drill went off center. Best results have been one pass drilling. If you want to send me air tubes, I'll drill some for you.

    I wanted to also on mine, open up the air inlet port. We discovered, on the thin wall tubing that a lot more performance was had be lengthing the slot.

    Need to make up some more air tubes. Just have to find the time.
     
  12. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Chris, I ran into a guy a few days ago that had a son that is/was an Olympic shooter. They had gone through all the 4-H/daisy training. This guy loved the 499's. He had used some carbon fiber tube from the archery world, and epoxied over his 499 barrel to dampen the vibration/ oscillation issues. He was clear they couldn't use the modified barrels in completion. He also liked some sort of lead bb for the best accuracy. Just had to never point the barrel down...... He liked my RR/499 repeater.
     
  13. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Cobalt, I haven't done much more shooting for accuracy. I have in fact, though about sending you my "hybrid" for accuracy testing and stock review. I have sort of decided on a leapers "bug buster" scope. Haven't ordered one yet or even daisy parts I need.
     
  14. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Neither 50th has the anti bear trap. Both are metal levers.
     
  15. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Good to hear from you.

    I will look closer at the internal structure in relation to trigger support. I sort of have a plan to put all the successful modified parts into one of the older 1938Bs.

    Could you show some pics of how you modified your trigger with the machined brass spacers for better support? I would like to do something similar. Thanks!

    We opened up the abutment with a reamer. I was skeptical till we tried it and it worked well.

    I have observed you barrel centering issues as well. Each gun I have is somewhat different. I believe it has to do with how the ring that is spot welded in the shroud, that the abutment seats against, is aligned. If a bit crooked, it "tilts" the abutment.

    The 499 barrel assy from daisy was $12 IIRC.

    If the "barrel cap" or front sight piece comes out easily, either the shroud is spread or the catch tab on the plastic plug is damaged. I made a thin steel tool, to insert, to unlock the tab without damage to either piece. I have had to reshape the shroud end to hold the plug tight.
     
  16. Chris USA

    Chris USA Member

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    Hinz57,

    The carbon fiber sleeve is an interesting take on controlling barrel whip/vibration/oscillation. I have seen some higher end PCP's that appear to have taken the same approach,.. though I think it was mainly to add to the "cool" factor. At minimum,.. increase in stiffness should occur. Another approach would be to cut the shroud off and leave the barrel exposed,.. and then use a sliding weight/collar that could be locked down in variable positions. Sighting would then become an issue as there would be no front sight.

    My understanding of the whole topic is that you want the projectile to leave the barrel at the exact moment that the barrel is in it's relaxed,.. or neutral/at rest state. That is making the presumption that the barrel end is in fact "whipping about" at all. Much less an issue on a bb rifle as opposed to a powder burner obviously. I do know that the 499 RR spring tune turned my usual 24' feet, 10 shot groups into 1/4", from about an 1/2" on a consistent and repeated basis. The "lock time" is much quicker as well. Still, a very smooth shooter.
     
  17. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Chris, thx for your input! You all have probably figured out that I'm not an experienced shooter. So it's difficult for me to claim accuracy with my mods. I do however have a fair bit of design and fabrication experience, so am having a blast at designing and making parts. All input and insight into this project is helpful.

    I have some experience with fiberglass and resin. It would be easier, I think, to simply wrap a barrel with cloth and resin, for stiffness. I question how much if any difference it might make. I really have no way to prove any effect.

    Thx!
     
  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Regarding accuracy testing, you might consider making a fixture to hold the gun to take the shooter's skill out of the picture. Even experienced shooters who compete use such devices. That's not to say a fixture introduces the same dynamics as a hand held gun, but it does help when evaluating accuracy. The problem would be to hold the gun while still allowing the gun to be cocked. In the case of the RR, it need to be tipped to feed a BB, so that's another consideration.
     
  19. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_0393.JPG IMG_0394.JPG IMG_0396.JPG IMG_0397.JPG IMG_0398.JPG I have a bit of insight into why the #25 shot tube assy has a higher native mv than a RR. I took one each, apart to study and compare. Th port where the bb's feed through, to their "ejection chamber", Is almost round and holds a string of 4 bb's under spring pressure. I suggest that this is a much better restriction on air loss through the port than the squarish port on the RR, which at best holds 2 bb's in the port, and they will probably roll away if the barrel is pointed down.

    Clearly, the new 25 is much superior to the old shot tubes. Extra holes for the springs and a kind of round seamed barrel.

    Without reading the thread again, IIRC, the mv was significantly higher with the 25. I don't remember how the accuracy compared to the RR. What say you?

    More to come on the 1938 with the #25 shot tube assy.
     
  20. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Yes, I have considered this, though haven't persued it yet. I assume that daisy uses some sort of fixture to hold the 499 barrels for test firing on the target they include.

    I was sort of thinking something that one could index the gun into, with reasonable repeatability. But remove to cock the gun. I've been leaning toward a leapers bug buster to then actually sight the target.
     
  21. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_0399.JPG IMG_0400.JPG IMG_0401.JPG IMG_0402.JPG Another observation on the barrel being naturally centered in the shroud or not. As I was studying a couple of RR shot tubes, I noticed that the 2 pieces are not necessarily perfectly matched. Thus, the shoulder created to seat the abutment to the stop ring in the shroud may have varying offsets that would force the barrel out of center in the shroud. The worst one that I have is the new one that was shipped with a seamed barrel.

    The other issue I observed is the seamed barrel is out of round enough that the 2 halves of the abutment won't fit together correctly. That may also cause the issue that Englertracing observed.

    You have to look pretty closely at the pics to see what I am talking about.

    I am considering slipping the assembled barrel/abutment into a collet on the lathe, holding the barrel in the collet. Then taking a light cut to make the shoulder uniformly perpendicular to the axis of the barrel. I believe that may be the best one can do to center the barrel in the shroud. If this works, it would minimize the side load induced into the barrel when the piston is stopped by the abutment.

    Will this affect accuracy? I don't know, but it can't hurt, I think.

    Opinions? Thx!

    The first 2 pics are the seamed barrel. The other 2 are the #25 barrel modified to fit the RR abutment. It was pretty close to centered.
     
  22. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    My opinion? This is great ! lol You're taking this to a whole new level and I can't wait to hear how it turns out. I'll post more after I've had time to digest it all, but that's an insightful observation regarding the 25 shot tube's advantage over a gravity fed tube like the new RR. And it's something I hadn't considered before. I do think the new RR/Buck shot tubes are better than the older removable tubes, if for no other reason than the new ones are (most, anyway) seamless and have a tighter ID than the removable tubes that I've seen- and this includes one shot tube from one of my model 96 guns that looks practically unused. But the new gravity tubes don't compare to a 25 tube for MV. It'll be interesting to see how a RR w/a 25 barrel stacks up against a RR/factory RR tubed gun. I think the accuracy will be better as well, but I don't have anything concrete to support that.

    For centering the barrel in the shroud, what about using a 'washer' that had an OD to match the shroud ID, and an ID that matched the barrel OD, inserted into the shroud between the loading door and the sight plug? Or maybe a machined aluminum sight plug that fits the shroud and barrel tightly? Add a threaded hole for a front sight post. A sight post like that could be made w/a 'crook' in it to give windage adjustment as it's turned (think of roughly the shape of a hand crank like used on some tire jacks or antique car starters).

    [​IMG]
    I hadn't noticed the abutments being off like shown above, but that sure could cause the problems Englertracing has had. At $4.00 a pop, sorting for a good one could get expensive unless they're a lot better that what you showed! I'll go through the ones I have to see what they look like...
     
  23. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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  24. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    That took me to a warner cable log in page...
     
  25. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    Sorry, I tested it and it worked OK.
    Anyway, it was a lever action BB gun much like a Red Rider, made, I believe by company other than Daisy.
    It's on the Pyramid Air Web site.
     

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