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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. Bscasr

    Bscasr Member

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    cobalt327 you stated that your ultimate 499 would be a multi shot. If you look at the evolution of the Daisy avanti 499 one of its predecessors the daisy model 99 had a 50bb shot tube similar to a Model 25. This is not the Daisy model 99 champion which was a single shot front loader like the 499. Found out that before there was a specialized Daisy 5m target gun 4h clubs would buy multiple Daisy model 99s and find the best barrel out of the bunch. This resulted in Daisy making the 99 champion then the 499. Thought I'd pass along the info. Doing my own build now and looking for a Model 99 but having trouble finding a site with one for sale that imports into Canada. SIGH!!!!!
     
  2. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    HI Bscasr,
    I'm familiar with the spring feed model 99 and I would love to find a decent one for a reasonable price. I made something similar (was just talking about it on a different forum) by using the model 25 shot tube in a model 96. The 96 has a slightly shorter outer barrel shroud, so it takes a 3/16" spacer under the shot tube cap to allow the shot tube to tighten to the barrel shroud but otherwise it works real good. FWIW, in every gun I've replaced the gravity feed shot tube with a spring loaded model 25 shot tube, I've seen an increase in MV. Exactly how much depends on what the other modifications (if any) have been done to the gun- guns that are modified to shoot harder gain more fps than a stock gun. IIRC the least increase I've seen was about 25 fps, the most was about 50 fps and accuracy is also better- so I use them whenever I can.

    I'm not familiar with a single shot 99, though. Do you have one?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  3. Bscasr

    Bscasr Member

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    No I don't have a model 99. But I'm looking at modding a 499 if I can't buy one.

    Have you ever heard of someone using a flat wire recoil spring from an AR15?

    The flatwire allows for a longer spring with more coils to be used because it can compress into a shorter length. Also it has less twisting under compression. Has somewhere around 18-19ft lbs of strength. Same diameter as the spring from a 499 as well. Also flat wire springs have more energy while in motion than a round wire spring. It takes 18 lbs to compress but when released it still has 15-16ft lbs of energy compared to the round wire having 13-14ft lbs while in motion, as an example. I also plan on reinforcing the spring assembly to prevent it from bowing under compression.

    I've been doing a lot of hunting for info before starting and getting the parts in. I decided to join the forum to comment on this discussion here and possibly add to it or maybe save myself a headache if I have missed something.

    Thanks for your build info by the way getting technical info is a pain in the butt and your info has helped.
     
  4. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    The AR recoil spring is a very interesting idea. I use that type of recoil spring in my G40 and 1911s. The spring rate is okay as far as not being too strong, and the flat wire allows for dialing in preload to set the MV where you want it. In the case of the Daisy lever BB guns, there's a design 'flaw' that comes out when the spring rate is increased, and that flaw is mentioned/shown in the post above with the cutaway Red Ryder. The spacer hinz57 designed fixes the problem of the spring compressing unevenly and I would encourage anyone who's going to use a stronger or preloaded spring to use something similar. Please keep us posted of your experiences, it sounds very promising I have to say!
     
  5. Bscasr

    Bscasr Member

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    Question for anybody.

    I have an option of either modding a Daisy model 99 which has a 50bb shot tube or a Daisy avanti 499 single shot.
    I will be increasing power, have not taken apart either, but I have done so with a Red Ryder etc...
    The problem is which would be the better option. More accuracy or the mazagine? It will be getting more power either way.
    Can I put a 499 barrel in a Daisy 99 and make an improvement in accuracy or will the shot tube magazine make this worthless?
    Or is it better to stay with a single shot, not have a much mechanical complexity, and what I think would be leakages with the magazine feed?
    I also have ideas for increasing barrel support with the Daisy 499 reducing vibration when fired. Plus the usual trigger mod etc.
    Velocity, Accuracy, Convenience. I'd like to go with all three if i can.
    Decisions Decisions...... All of which must be made this weekend before I make purchases.
     
  6. Sinner1111

    Sinner1111 Member

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    This is the most interesting post I have ever found anywhere ! . I have been modifying and fixing guns like 1377 1322 Benjamin 392 ..760 red Riders.... I also own a daisy 499b and a Model 25 so this post is extraordinarily interesting to me... I have so many shots on my Red Rider I I wore out the metal cocking lever somewhere around 24000 rounds to 30000 rounds ... believe it or not this took less than a year to wear out the cocking lever lol just to give you an idea how much I shoot. I ordered a new metal cocking lever from Daisy for about $3 came out to about 6 bucks with shipping. Anyway I used the new lever for reference drilled and tapped the old worn-out lever installed a mild Steel bolt where it was worn out and Then took a Dremel and shaped it just like the new one I had ordered. I did this 2 increase the life of the leaver.. because the soft pot metal lever where's out rather quickly in my opinion. The mild steel is still no match for the steel inside the gun . So the mild steel bolt will still wear out and that's what you want .you don't want to wear out the gun.. I'm telling you this because you are modifying your guns and increasing the pressure on the lever this will cause your lever to wear out even faster than mine did.. yes you can easily just order a new lever but I think it's a pretty cool mod to have a reinforced lever.. anyway you guys really hyped me up and I decided to do some modifications to my old worn-out Red Rider. My spring is in bad shape so I am not getting speed anywhere next to what you guys are getting butt I did Breathe new life into the Red Rider it is definitely shooting harder here are some pics of what I've done. Let me know what else you think I should do besides getting a new spring I just don't have any money to play with right now.. I would like to thank both of you for this post. I believe people will be using this information for a very long time thank you very much for helping me revive my old worn-out Red Rider 20161016_145241.jpg 20161016_190011.jpg !
     

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  7. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    That's some good work there! What size is the air tube after drilling? I can tell your old spring is a little distorted, I would think a new one might work a little better but until you do it, hard to say if or how much help it'll be.

    That gun looks really nice, too. Is it blued?

    On the lever, did you first thread the bolt into the end of the lever then grind it to size? It looks like it should last forever! lol
     
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  8. Sinner1111

    Sinner1111 Member

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    I think the drill bit is 1/8 ..I went as big as I could with the only sharp bit long enough to get the job done lol...

    Thanks , I like how its coming out , a little more polishing and the gun will be ready for bluing
    I think it needs a darker stain too .

    Yes I shaped it after I installed it...if you shape it first it might not end up were you want it , well for me anyway lol

    I think it will last a long time..it's been working hard for a lot longer then I thoght it would

    How much is a new spring ?
     
  9. rick-o-shay

    rick-o-shay Member

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    Sinner
    looks great to me, good job on that lever. The one I'm getting has a broken lever, now i know a good fix. Although I doubt I've got enough years left to shoot that many rounds. I did find some shipping crates with full 3/4 inch rough cut thick boards to make a longer stock. It's 2 1/2 inches longer, will cut 1/2 " off though. From a heating & air conditioning sheet metal shop-the crates for shipping equipment.That kids stock didn't fit well, for me.
     

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  10. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Last time I ordered the plunger assembly, it was $4.00. IIRC, Daisy doesn't sell the spring separately, so the plunger ass'y. is what I get. It gives you a spare air tube and piston seal, so it's a decent deal overall. One thing, though- if you use the new air tube you need to use the supplied pin that has the flats on it. The old style round pin doesn't fit the new style air tube unless you take some material off the new tube's hole. The plunger tube is made for the new style plastic trigger 'module', so it won't work right in your old gun, either.

    PLUNGER_ASSEMBLY_RED_RYDER.jpg
     
  11. Sinner1111

    Sinner1111 Member

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    I think it will work in my gun , is only 8 year old..I got the last one I ever seen with a metal clocking lever...I just call it my old gun.. probably because I've done more shooting with it then any pellet gun or powder burner... also it's been on many back woods camping hiking Adventures ....
    I probably have well over 50,000 rounds through this thing. My trigger is kind of sloppy I think a new trigger assembly and a new spring would be nice... I keep asking for a new Red Ryder for Christmas honestly I've been asking for years now but nobody takes me seriously and they keep telling me I'm going to shoot my eye out :cuss:
     
  12. Sinner1111

    Sinner1111 Member

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    The stock looks great ! Must be a lot of fun making and using your own stock... if I ever get my hands on some decent would I think I might give it a try , all I have right now is 1" hemlock I think it might be a little too soft for my liking
     
  13. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I respect anyone who can get wood to do what they want. I'm 'wood challenged' myself- anything much more than finishing and I'm out of my element. I thought buying one of the chief aj stocks would be the answer to the too-short Red Ryder, and it was, kind of. The LOP (14-7/8") is good and basic shape is okay but the holes were drilled wrong and had to be redrilled so the lever matched the contour of the stock correctly. But most disappointing is that the wood lacks any character at all. As close to grainless as any piece of wood I've ever seen. But it did take stain okay and after fixing the issues the gun it's on is one of my favorite shooters.

    The top gun is my old 104 with a Red Ryder stock and forearm on it. Bottom is the aj stock on a Red Ryder.

    104_OVER_RR_LEFT.jpg

    104_OVER_RR_RIGHT.jpg
     
  14. rick-o-shay

    rick-o-shay Member

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    HAHA you guys only saw the good side of my RR stock.
    The other side has character- wood mold to be exact. The one on my model 25 came out better, but thats the second attempt, the other was used for kindling.
     

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  15. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    After months of putting it off, I was finally able to get back to some good old Daisy fun. I had been sidetracked by a couple Crosman projects that mushroomed into more than I had bargained for! At least they turned out okay and the guns are a lot of fun to shoot, although they're CO2 powered- and pellet guns- so the cost per shot is way more than my faithful Daisys.

    The gun I chose to work on today is the $5.00 yard sale model 104 I first showed here as the gun I lengthened the barrel shroud on, so I could use a model 25 shot tube in it. FWIW this mod works great and is good for better accuracy as well as better MV, all else being equal. As I've said before- every gun I've swapped a 25 shot tube into (4 so far) has shot better than the original gravity feed shot tubes. Anyway, I chose this gun because it had a bit of "twang" to the shot cycle, so I needed to take it down to address that anyway. My other Daisys that I've modified now have many thousands of BBs through them (I use them almost daily), and they're all still shooting great.

    Some may remember me having received a supply of large ID air tubes and a neat bushing/preload spacer from hinz57. I installed one of the air tubes (ID is 11/64", stock is 5/64”) along with the spacer/bushing that corrects the way the spring bears on the retainer into the 104. There parts are shown in the post HERE. Dis- and re-assembly went w/o any problems.

    It's dark out so no chronograph data, but even so, I can tell it's shooting hella strong! I'll be testing the MV as soon as I can tomorrow and I'm expecting to see some very good results. Stay tuned... mwink.gif
     
  16. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Went from 320 fps to 375 fps. That's a decent enough bump, but frankly I was hoping for more. (Isn't that always the case? lol). Disappointed or not, it's now the hardest hitting Daisy I own.

    The POI changed- it's now shooting a bit high. This is as good of a reason there ever was for modifying the rear sight to make it adjustable. Only wrinkle to this is, the 104 has a fixed rear sight that doubles as the spring retainer. Couple ways I can go about this: attach the adjustable blade from a Daisy model 901 (p/n 137970-000 sight group, $1.75) like I did on the Red Ryder earlier. Or I could mount a FO sight set-up from the model 953. I also have a model 499 peep sight that will work. I'll decide something here directly.

    Sight now looks similar to this:
    06-23-09-02.jpg

    Model 901 adjustable blade adapted to RR:
    RR1_CROPPED_REAR_SIGHT_MODDED.jpg

    953 sight on my model 499:

    499_w-953_rear_sight.jpg

    499 peep:

    499_rear_sgt_compos_w-textAA1.jpg
     
  17. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    Great Thread!
     
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  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Decided to mount a different rear sight on the model 104. I removed the existing rear sight that's built into the spring anchor and replaced it with an anchor from a Red Ryder that has a very low profile. The sight on the 104 now is from a friend here, LoonWulf, who sent it to me from Hawaii! The sight radius is rather short because of having to mount the rear sight forward enough for it to be in 'soft' focus, as well as to make the notch width correct for the existing front sight. Even so, I have an 8" barreled CO2 carbine that has open sights and it shoots fine with a half inch less sight radius so go figure... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    The odd looking extension to the barrel shroud is so I can use a model 25 shot tube in place of the gravity feed tube the model 104 came with. Now that I know this works so well (this was the first gun that I replaced the gravity shot tube with a model 25 tube), I will use a connector for the extension that's internal instead of external to make it look a lot cleaner. Then I'll remove the original front sight and replace it with one mounted on the extension, but for now this is shooting a lot better now that I can adjust the windage.

    104_LW_REAR_SIGHT.jpg
     
  19. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    The Mods have graciously allowed me to add a link to Post #1 that takes the viewer to this TOC. Thank you, Mods- you all are the best!

    TABLE OF CONTENTS

    The following shows the basic contents currently in this thread. Hopefully it will make finding a particular subject a little easier.

    1.
    • Link to Daisy BB gun powerplant- how it works.
    • “New versus Old”
    • Photo comparison between old style Daisy lever BB gun plunger tube assembly and the new style plunger tube assembly, including air tubes.
    • Photo comparison between old style Daisy lever BB gun trigger and the new style plastic trigger “module”.
    • Photos showing where preload spacer goes, also how to use a washer to make reassembly easier.
    • Link to Daisy Lever Action, Gravity Feed Workshop Manual
    • Photos showing how to modify front sight/barrel plug to adjust windage (other options later).
    • Photos and text showing the fitting of a Chief AJ adult sized buttstock. Also comparison of different stocks. More at page 4.
    • Trigger mods, sourcing of curved metal lever for Red Ryder ($3.00 from Daisy).
    • Photo of exploded view and parts order form and ordering info for Red Ryder and a few other models.
    • Brief discussion of leather seals and spring compressor.
    • Comparison between the Sheridan Cowboy and the Red Ryder. (Actually more differences than similarities.)

    2.
    • Discussion of dis- and reassembly.
    • Chronograph testing of stock and modified BB guns. More on page 3.
    • More, detailed discussion of the Cowboy. More at page 4.

    3.
    • Brief discussion on seals (model 25 and 104), springs (104, RR, 499B), sights (104, 499B), plunger tubes and air tubes.
    • More chronograph testing.
    • Link to cutaway of a Red Ryder showing internal parts, cocked and uncocked. Very interesting.
    • Detail photos of the Cowboy, and of the model 104 showing the abutment.
    • Replacement seals for the Red Ryder and model 104.
    • Accuracy testing at 10 meters.
    • Brief discussion of lead shot.
    • Brief discussion of drilling air tube to a larger ID.

    4.
    • Photo and text about the model 499B powerplant.
    • Photos and text on using model 25 shot tube in place of a gravity feed shot tube.
    • Testing model 104 before and after replacing shot tube.
    • Photos and text on new replacement seals for model 104.
    • Piston travel and swept volumes for several BB guns.
    • Removing anti beartrap ‘rack’ from plastic trigger module.
    • Cowboy assembly tips.
    • Buttstock length of pull comparison photos.

    5.
    • Red Ryder #3 — The Quest For 350 FPS. This gives some details of what it took back then to reach 350 fps.
    • Air tube details
    • Photo of modified plunger assembly used in the model 104.
    • Model 25 comments.
    • Photo comparing various springs, including the model 25. Model 25 trigger.
    • Sourcing model 25 seals and spring.
    • Resurrecting a used model 95

    6.
    • Brief discussion of the Number 3 Model 27 “reverse cocker”.
    • More on the model 95- sights, accuracy, MV.
    • Discussion on the "2000 Millennium" model Red Ryder. (Gun was found to be sorely lacking in quality/QC.)
    • Brief discussion of the model 96.
    • Information on building a 499B from parts.
    • Some info on a few Red Ryder and 499B parts.
    • 499B accuracy testing.
    • How to use the good quality steel trigger module from a model 99 in a model 95 or 96.
    • Trigger pull weights.
    • Brief overview of the model 1105.
    • Trigger comparison over several generations.
    • Comparison of model 99 and 499B trigger modules.
    • 499B accuracy testing using better peep sight.

    7.
    • A member, englertracing, starts modifying his Red Ryder- delrin preload spacer, drilled air tube, spacers to center plastic trigger module inside frame.
    • Stainless steel tubing for custom air tubes.
    • How to remove new style shot tube, tool for same.
    • New style 3-piece abutment, disassembled.
    • Dimensions of the new style model 25 and Red Ryder shot tubes.
    • Cost of various brands of BBs.

    8.
    • How to replace new style BB loading gate.
    • Link to huinz57’s photos of mounting a modified model 25 shot tube into a Red Ryder abutment assembly.
    • Date Red Ryder production moved to China. (About 2006, but there was overlap of old versus new stock.)

    9.
    • How to use open sights, some discussion on peep sights, scopes and red dot sights.
    • Dimensions of 499B shot tube.
    • How to modify the Red Ryder rear sight to have windage adjustment. Also see Page 10, Post #246.
    • Replacing the spring in the 499B with a new style Red Ryder spring. (Also see Page 10, Post #244 for final MV measurement.)
    • Error in Post #224: “Then there's the lack of a shot tube in the 499, not needed because it's a single shot muzzle loader- and being a single shot is the one major downside to the 499/RR hybrid. But if you're going to make a repeater, the shot tube is a necessary evil, given the design parameters of the Daisy lever action BB gun.” Should read: “Then there's the lack of an AIR tube in the 499, not needed because it's a single shot muzzle loader- and being a single shot is the one major downside to the 499/RR hybrid. But if you're going to make a repeater, the AIR tube is a necessary evil, given the design parameters of the Daisy lever action BB gun.”

    10.
    • Discussion about chronographs.
    • 499B MV without preload spacer- the MV increased over having a spacer installed.
    • Photos and text on making Red Ryder rear sight adjustable for windage.
    • Photos of disassembled nickel plated Number 102 Model 36 with leather seals. (hinz57)

    11.
    • Custom Red Ryder stock (hinz57)
    • Nice exploded view of hinz57’s Number 102 Model 36.
    • Dimensions of Number 102 Model 36 spring.
    • More spring comparison photos and dimensions by hinz57.

    12.
    • Pondering the “pool cue shot” effect given by the air tube to the BB when the gun is fired: how much MV does it contribute? See page 1 for link to description of how the Red Ryder powerplant propels a BB.
    • Member flightsimmer, good ideas regarding airguns in general
    • More pondering: air volume of compression chamber versus volume of shot tube, importance of timing the high pressure discharge to be “all in” before the BB leaves the barrel, pressure losses when using a repeater shot tube.
    • Hinz57 chronograph testing- impressive numbers!

    13.
    • Specifications of hinz57’s “hot” gun.
    • Relative importance of air tube and shot tube configuration for overall performance.
    • Discussions on preload spacer size, materials, cause/cure for plunger tube deflection when using preload spacers.

    14.
    • Spring anchor’s relationship to the end of the spring- turns out to be important!
    • Using the Red Ryder spring AND plunger head (piston) in a 499B. (Chris USA)
    • Photos showing both ends of 499B shot tube without abutment or funnel.
    • 8 degree misalignment caused by spring anchor not being square to the end of spring. Making a spacer to correct that misalignment .

    15.
    • Making custom air tube.
    • Custom Red Ryder stock photos.
    • Threaded extension for 499B barrel to allow it to fit a Red Ryder.
    • Piston stroke measurements.
    • Precise measurements of various Daisy shot tube IDs.

    16.
    • Custom scope rail.
    • Finished 499 shot tube in Red Ryder abutment with extension.
    • Hinz57 breaks 400 fps with relative ease!
    • Particulars of the 370 fps, 398 fps and 412 fps tunes.
    • Found practical limit to spring preload- gun will not cock with 1-1/4” preload.
    • Some discussion of relocating trigger as a means to add stroke- not practical.
    • More talk about optics.
    • Vinyl tubing over barrel to damp oscillations/vibrations.

    17.
    • Using model 953 rear FO sight on 499B. Comparison photos of various rear sights on the 499B.
    • Unwanted shot tube movement. (engleracing)
    • Some ideas for lengthening stock.
    • Comparison photos of model 25 abutment and why it’s more efficient than that of the Red Ryder.

    18.
    • Detail photos of customized air tubes.
    • Gas ram for the Daisy?
    • Some talk on square wire springs.
    • 2-piece steel triggers, one with anti beartrap rack.
    • Photo of drilled and custom air tubes from hinz57.
    • Photo showing 8 degree correcting spring seat/spacer.

    19.
    • Comparing 499 and 99 features.
    • Modification to metal lever to make it more reliable.
    • Member rick-o-shay custom buttstock.
    • Installing hinz57 spacer and air tube into model 104, with results.
    • My model 104 hits 375 fps using air tube and spacer from hinz57.
    • Changing rear sight on model 104.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  20. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    On a tip I was able to get a quote on replacement Daisy lever action BB gun springs. These are about the same spring rate as the Cowboy spring that gave me 330 fps from an early Model 104 with the 1-piece steel trigger. Cost depends on the quantity ordered, I suspect the cost would be between $10 and $12 each.

    I'm still weighing the practicality of making this purchase; if anyone reads this who would be interested in getting one or more for themselves, please PM me and I'll give what details I currently have.
     
  21. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    On another front, I decided to use the spring preload spacer/bushing currently in my 104 that corrects the way the spring bears on the retainer (made for me by hinz57) in my 499B just to see what the improvement in MV will be. You may recall that the 499 doesn't use an air tube, so only the spacer will be added. Currently, the 499 is using a Red Ryder spring and no preload on the spring. Configured this way MV is just north of 420 fps and accuracy is still great. I haven't made the swap yet, but if it works as well in the 499 as it did in the 104 I spoke of above, it ought to spit out a BB at a real good clip!

    We'll see...
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  22. air_dannon

    air_dannon Member

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    It's been a couple years on this post, but it is the only one I've found that has the mod for a daisy very similar to the one my son bought at a flea market. It shoots really weak, so I went internet hunting and think this post is great. I'm feeling more familiar with the parts after viewing a YT video on repairing one and, combined with this post, I feel confident about the mod. My only question is pertaining to the air tube drill out. I wish there was a closeup pic of the before after drill out. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying the ID of the air tube needs a slight drilling out to really take advantage of the added spring pressure from the spacer, yes?
     
  23. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018 at 2:09 AM
  24. air_dannon

    air_dannon Member

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    Awesome, thanks for pointing to the other pages of the post. Drilling out the ID of air tube seems to be a bugger for those without a lathe. Fabrication seems like a nice route. Is it imperative the air tube be made of steel? I found copper tube with same OD and can be easily pounded/drilled/notched to be like the stock air tube. It's ID is what I would probably try and attain drilling out the stock one. Just wondering if I'm missing something that the copper version would not be able to handle it... :/
     
  25. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    The air tube launches the BB when the gun is fired so every shot the end of the AT gets hit. Over time this can peen the end, possibly obstructing the airflow. That said, for a casual use gun that won't see constant use, the copper AT will probably hold up for a while, I'd say.
     
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