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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Replacement piston and seal for old Daisy BB guns

    REPLACEMENT SEALS
    My latest Daisy order arrived today. In it was a couple parts originally designed for the Model 25 pump BB gun. I gambled these parts would work in my old style discontinued Model 104 from around 1970. I’m happy to report that these parts are the same, and my garage sale Model 104 will be back in service real soon!

    Daisy_25-194_seals_w-text.jpg

    130126-100 Barrel Seal ($1.00
    130225-100 Plunger Head (piston) ($1.50)
    These are a direct replacement for the early steel trigger/removable shot tube style Daisy lever guns, ca. 1970 (possibly works in all except leather sealed guns).

    MAIN SPRINGS
    The 499B spring is different from the Red Ryder/Buck new model spring. Slightly bigger OD, more coils and smaller wire diameter. BTW, the 499B does not use an air tube.

    Cow-rr-499_springs_w-text.jpg

    499 B SPRING SPECS
    7” free length
    0.538”
    0.9375” OD
    0.078” wire dia.
    34 coils

    PLUNGER TUBES
    Also found that the Daisy Model 499B plunger tube (169761-000 Plunger casing $2.00) has thicker “legs” than the new style Daisy lever guns: 0.345” vs. 0.330”. But not quite as thick as the old style tube, old being 0.350”. No photos, the differences in thickness are too small to see. The rear cross piece on the 499B plunger tube is also different. If it were to be used in a Red Ryder the anti beartrap wouldn’t work. It has no bottom “guides” so whether it’ll work in a Red Ryder remains to be seen, but if I had to guess, I’d say they will work.

    AIR TUBE
    Model 25 air tube (150272-100 $1.50) is same as Red Ryder air tube.

    REAR SIGHT
    I have been looking for an adjustable rear sight that could be used on the Daisy lever BB guns like my old style Model 104 and the new style Model 105 Buck BB guns that have the simple notch open rear sight that’s also the spring anchor. The 499B uses an aperture sight (169371-000 Rear sight group $3.00) that screws to the rear of the receiver. I’m going to see if it can be used on my old Model 104 by attaching it using the top, rear stock mounting screw.

    06-23-09-02.jpg DAISY_499_rear_sgt_compos_w-text.jpg
    Non adjustable rear sight (Pyramyd Air)


    FRONT SIGHT
    Not sure what I’ll do about the front sight. Unlike the new type Daisies, the front sight on the old model 104 is spotted to the outer barrel tube. Daisy does carry the 499B front sight inserts (163912-000 Sight inserts (4) $1.00) but the 499B front globe sight housing is also part of the 499B outer barrel tube, so it's unavailable as a replacement part.

    Daisy-Avanti-Champion-499_DY-499_zm2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  2. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Very nice, ive actually been looking at a 499b on clist here. Might snag it if it comes down a bit more. For a front sight you could get a t&c contender front sight. The blades are pinned in but easily moveable...i used on on my small shrouded 2250 build. Drilled and tapped the pin holr to 4-40 now i can adjust blade hight as needed....also if you want i have an adjustable rear that fits onto a 3/8 dovetail....as well as a short chunk of 3/8th rail. Its the same sight as is conected to my pistol.

    IMG_20160926_152617429.jpg

    IMG_20160926_152626119.jpg
     
  3. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Good lookin' pistol, LoonWulf! And I will look into the Contender sight you mentioned.

    I almost sprung for a Benjamin Trail NP that was on sale (either scratch and dent or refurbished at pyramid or airgun depot, forget which) but backed out. There are so many airguns to choose from until my searches/research always seem to end after a few hours, in utter indecision.

    I have a 499B shot tube assemble on back order, had wanted to take the shot tube from it and adapt it to one of the Red's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  4. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Yeah, i keep looking at new airguns. Now that i got my buddy bottles i may go back i to pcps, but ive fallen in love with tue co2 powerd guns for anything under 20fpe.

    I looked at that 499 today, its pretty beat up, didnt look it from the pictures, but if the guy takes me up on my lowball offer maybe u can use some of the parts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  5. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    At one point, I added up the cost of the parts to build myself a 499 from scratch. The cost was considerably lower than what it sells for, retail. But then, no warranty and no returns except for the individual parts. There also could be some parts on backorder- the shot tube is, unless they just missed it in my order (I need to call them to find out what's up). But that's something you could look into- at least you would know it was put together right, and it would be new.

    The cost before shipping for what I think was the entire 499 was around $80, IIRC.
     
  6. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    Does anyone have a step by step instructions sheet for disassembly/assembly of the model #25 Daisy?
    Mine works fine but needs a little +P if that's possible.
    I'VE got the crono results here somewhere but can't find them right now.

    Found it! Hi 338, low 320, avg 330, 18.04 ex spread, 4. 58 standard deviation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  7. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Red Ryder and 499B plunger tubes and peep sight

    PLUNGER TUBES, CONTINUED
    The photo shows the differences in these tubes. I’m going to trim one of the two 499B plunger tubes and install it into one of the Red Ryders w/a preloaded spring to see what the results actually are. It’s my opinion that not having the two “guides” will make little/no difference. I say this because when the tube is viewed from the rear w/the stock removed, it can be seen that the guides don’t actually touch the rails that are presumably there for them to ride on- at least they don’t when in the fully cocked and at rest positions. I’ll withhold further comment until I’ve actually shot the gun w/the 499 plunger tube in it.

    DAISY_499-RR_TUBES_REARVIEW_W-TEXT.jpg

    499B PEEP SIGHT
    The base is a simple stamped steel “L” bracket, slotted for windage and elevation adjustments. For now I have turned it 180º from how it sits on a 499B to let it sit level. No washers are included, so as the screw into the stock is tightened, it tries to push the sight to the right unless a washer is used. No problem, I just added a washer (for now it's a hard white plastic washer that will not be staying for long). Because the screw that holds the sight is threaded into the wooden stock, it cannot be tightened too much and it can’t be loctited, so I’ll have to be careful not to knock it out of adjustment.

    The way it is now, I have it co witnessed w/the original rear sight. The sight picture through the aperture shows all of the rear sight notch and a small section of the top of the sight on both sides, then the front post. It’s adjusted so the POI coincides w/the top of the front blade when it’s centered in the aperture. This will never be a fast target acquisition type setup but in this case it doesn’t have to be.

    I found the aperture to be a little too large for how close it is to my eye. This is more because of how I mounted it than any fault w/the sight. I will try using it w/smaller apertures to find its sweet spot. Whether I keep this sight mounted the way it is now or not remains to be seen but I’ll likely use it on either the old style Model 104 that is getting new seals or the new style Model 105 Buck, seeing as how they both have the rudimentary rear sight made from the spring anchor and are totally non adjustable.

    I’m very tempted to next try a red dot on the Red Ryder using a scope base that’s sold for the Red Ryder. I have a red dot collecting dust so all I need is the base. There’s also one made for the Cowboy.

    DAISY_RR_W-499_PEEP.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  8. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Wow- those numbers are already pretty hot! I'm gonna say this is an older gun, 'cause by what I'm seeing the new guns do not come anywhere near that.

    If this IS an older gun, the air tube may already be at least 3/32" ID (air tube ID of a Model 1894 from the '60s measured 0.098" or a #40 drill bit, 3/32″ is ~0.094). There's room to take it a little bigger, but I've not tried this yet to know if going to a larger ID than 3/32" will help or not- but at some point bigger isn't going to equate to more velocity.

    I see no reason why adding a little preload to the spring shouldn't help the velocity, at least a little bit. 350 fps looks to be doable, judging by what I'm seeing w/the Red Ryder. I would recommend not going too far because the added preload will put more stress on the cocking mechanism. I'd try a 1/2"-7/16" spacer and see how that did, and go from there.

    I've not been inside a Model 25 and haven't looked for any instructions on taking it apart but there's bound to be something online. If you haven't found anything on disassembly by the time I get around to taking mine apart, I'll post what I find.
     
  9. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    BB velocity test #2

    DAISY MATCH GRADE AVANTI PRECISION GROUND SHOT

    • STOCK Model 105 Buck……..……..258 fps [ES 3] (-2)
    • STOCK MODEL 25………....…….……285 fps [ES 2] (+3)
    • STOCK RED RYDER……………......…276 fps [ES 1] (-4)
    *STOCK Cowboy, Daisy Precision Max "standard" bb 329 fps [ES 5] (Tested too late to add to original post.)
    • STOCK Cowboy.........................328 fps [ES 1] (-1)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #1 ….….…338 fps [ES 2] (+10)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #2 ……..…343 fps [ES 4] (+8)

    • Daisy Precision Max zinc plated BBs- 8.6 BBs per 1¢
    • Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision- 1.5 BBs per 1¢, or 5.7 times more than the standard Daisy BB
    Numbers in brackets are the extreme spread. Numbers in parenthesis are the differences in fps between the BB being tested and the commonly available Daisy Precision Max zinc plated BB. The Precision Max BB has been shown in other tests to be a good all-around BB that's easily found and inexpensive compared to buying specialty BBs by mail order. So it will be the 'standard' for comparison's sake.

    I expected ALL the guns to gain velocity because of the larger OD and slick looking finish of the Avanti BBs. But as can be seen, what you think you will see ain't always the case! Given the cost of the Avanti compared to the 'standard BB, it will need to be exceptionally accurate for me to buy any more of them. So what remains to be seen is what the accuracy of the Avantis, and all the BBs, will be.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  10. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Bb velocity test #3

    UMAREX PRECISION STEEL
    • STOCK Model 105 buck...............260 fps [ES 1] (+0)
    • STOCK MODEL 25.......................286 fps [ES 1] (+4)
    • STOCK RED RYDER.....................273 fps [ES 1] (+3)
    • STOCK COWBOY........................332 fps [ES 1] (+3)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #1...........336 fps [ES 2] (+8)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #2...........339 fps [ES 2] (+4)
    As before, bracketed numbers = Extreme Spread, parenthesis = difference from Daisy Precision Max "standard" BB.
    • Umarex 1.6 BBs per 1¢, or 5.4 times more than the standard Daisy BB
     
  11. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    BB guns being tested

    resized_BB_GUN_LINEUP.jpg
     
  12. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    BB velocity test #4

    HORNADY BLACK DIAMOND
    • STOCK Model 105 Buck.........................262 fps [ES 1] (+2)
    • STOCK MODEL 25................................277 fps [ES 2] (-5)
    • STOCK RED RYDER..............................272 fps [ES 1] (+2)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #1....................334 fps [ES 1] (+6)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #2....................340 fps [ES 3] (+5)
    • COWBOY............................................327 fps [ES 4] (-2)
    Bracketed numbers = Extreme Spread, parenthesis = difference from Daisy Precision Max "standard" BB.
    • Hornady Black Diamond 3.2 BBs per 1¢, or 2.7 times more than the standard Daisy BB
    ETA- Having a little trouble getting the chrono to pick up the Crosman Copper Head BBs. Might just be the midmorning light outside is wrong. The Black Diamond BBs had no issues.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  13. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Great chrono reporting
     
  14. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    BB velocity test #5

    CROSSMAN COPPERHEAD, bought 1992
    • STOCK Model 105 Buck................................258 fps [ES 7] (-2)
    • STOCK MODEL 25........................................274 fps [ES 6] (-8)
    • STOCK RED RYDER......................................266 fps [ES 4] (-4)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #1............................329 fps [ES 2] (+1)
    • MODIFIED RED RYDER #2............................333 fps [ES 5] (-2)
    • COWBOY....................................................323 fps [ES 1] (-6)
    Bracketed numbers = Extreme Spread, parenthesis = difference from Daisy Precision Max "standard" BB.
    • Crossman Copper Head 7.6 BBs per 1¢, or 1.1 times more than the standard Daisy BB. Current pricing is used.
    FWIW for some reason I had a devil of a time getting the chronograph to 'see' these copper plated BBs. Had maybe 1 out of 5 record a velocity.

    One more velocity test to go, I need to pick up some new Crosman Copper head BBs. Then I'll get to some accuracy testing. I have to say the Cowboy has put down some decent numbers for a bone stock BB gun. I have decided that after I shoot it for accuracy, I'm going to enlarge the air tube ID to the same 3/32" as the modified Red Ryders, but without any extra preload on the spring. That will show whether just opening up the air tube will result in any velocity increase. I'm curious to see what happens...

    'Preciate it, LoonWulf. thumbsup.gif
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  15. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    You could try "painting" them with magic marker, that usually helps the "eyeball" chronos see projectiles.
     
  16. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Good idea. Still, sorta odd the copper plated BBs were a lot harder to get a reading on than either of the shiny zinc plated BBs...

    I'm gonna wait before doing any accuracy testing- just had cataract surgery on my non sighting eye (other eye was done months ago). My vision is better than ever, but I'm still a little distracted by it so I'll give it some time. When I feel I'm able to do the guns justice, I'll be back w/some accuracy results.

    HERE’S some photos of a Daisy Red Ryder that has been sectioned to show the insides, thought it was kinda interesting.

    The photo below is of the Cowboy's receiver and plunger tube, shows some of the details:

    Cowboy_view_cmprssn_chmbr_plngr_tb_w-text.jpg
     
  17. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Cowboy rear sight

    The photo shows how far off the windage was, as delivered. The Daisys were about as bad. But at least the Cowboy can be adjusted for windage- even if not originally intended to be- by slotting the screw holes. Too bad Daisy isn't listening... mwink.gif

    Sheridan_cowboy_windage.jpg
     
  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Below are a couple shots of my 1970-era Daisy Model 104 'abutment'. This is the fitting that the shot tube screws into and what the plunger/piston assembly is stopped by when the gun is discharged. No real reason except I wanted to try out my cheap-o borescope (~$11.00 delivered from Banggood). The camera/led end is small enough to fit down the barrel of a .22- not all of them are- so if you're considering one of these keep the OD in mind.

    DAISY_M104_ABUTMNT_FRNT_w-text.jpg

    Da1_DAISY_M104_ABUTMNT_REAR_w-text.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  19. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Replacement piston and seal for old Daisy BB guns

    WRONG! They are close but the piston's enough smaller in OD that it doesn't seal. So back to the drawing board- but it's not looking good for a cheap fix from currently available Daisy parts. I can get the right parts for $15.00 but doesn't make a lot of sense for a $2.00 BB gun w/no collector value. But NONE of this makes a lotta sense... so I'll be ordering the right parts tomorrow- one way or another. :D

    ETA- The seal that fits against the abutment is really the only un available part. The piston for the early Model 104 (and other's like it) is not available from Daisy separately. But the piston can be obtained by getting the plunger assembly for a Daisy Model 10 ($4.00 plus shipping). The piston is also available from the Red Ryder parts order form but it comes as part of what Daisy calls a "Main Barrel and Plunger" for $12.00 plus shipping. This consists of the entire Red Ryder receiver/barrel shroud w/the plunger assembly and shot tube assembly already installed. With this part you can assemble a working gun by adding a lever, trigger assembly and stock. But cost-wise, this isn't as cheap as buying just plunger assembly from Daisy or the seal and piston from Daisy Gun Works ($15.00 delivered, there may be other sources as well).
    DAISY_MOD_10_PARTS_LIST-ORDER_FORM.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  20. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    10 meter accuracy, Round 1- Daisy Precision Max (Walmart)

    The following are the results from Round 1 of accuracy testing. All targets were shot at 10 meters from a seated position using an informal rest- folded towel on the railing of my deck. The center "bull" is 1.050 inches in diameter. Each gun was given a 'fouling' shot before testing began. The guns performed pretty much flawlessly. I had zero failure to feed misfires and a single called flier (way low and right on RR1 target). I did my best but it must be said that I'm not anywhere near a good shot. No formal training, no experience in BR or competitive shooting sports. Just a plinker...

    A couple things to note- the Cowboy did much better that I thought it might. The stock Red Ryder didn't fair as well as I would have expected, given how well this particular gun shoots offhand. It was the best shooter of 3 new Red Ryders, the other two (RR1 and RR2) were both sacrificed to my modifications. The Model 25 did well. It also has the best trigger of the lot. Judging by the results I get using peep sights vs. open sights on the same guns, I have to assume I need more pratice w/peep sights. That said, I do very well using the peeps on targets a lot further away than 10 meters, so maybe I just need more practice using them at 10m.

    But by far the biggest surprise was the little Model 105 Buck! Even w/its short sight radius and its uber short buttstock, it outshot them all!! The problems arise when trying to shoot it offhand, though. The stock is just too short for me. But it has piqued my curiosity and I will at a later date replace the stock w/one from a Red Ryder or possibly a stock of my own making as I recently bought some wood for that purpose.

    AFIRST4_CIRCLED.jpg
    ANEXT3.jpg

    BUCK_SOLO.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  21. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Thats surprising accuracy...i just ran across some bbs on amazon that might be interesting, they are ment to be low ricochet, but seem to be lead and copper plated...not something your gonna wanna shoot a ton of but, and perhaps the gamos you may offer a better bore fit, as bbs are usually usually undersized.
     
  22. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hi LW. Yes- I have read about those BBs and they do sound interesting. They did some testing of them over at Pyramyd Air (aka "PA"). It was a part of the "BB Pelletier" blog (actually penned by airgun guru par excellence Tom Gaylord), link to the tests is below. I didn't think to get some when I put my order in w/PA, either. My bad, but FWIW I will include them if I can find them locally.

    By the way, over at PA Tom Gaylord and others seem to prefer to do BB gun accuracy tests at 5 meters. Do you like that idea better than 10m? I picked 10m mostly because 5m just seemed to be awfully close and I figured the 10m distance would make the differences in accuracy easier to see- like the longer distance would magnify the differences, if that makes sense.

    H&N Excite Smart Shot BBs, parts 1-6.

    "Splatology", or determining velocity by deformation. I found it to be kinda interesting, although no mention was made (that I recall) regarding the lead itself so I'll assume the tests were done using pure lead.

    For those who don't want to follow links, this is what the Smart Shot BBs look like after being shot at a "splash plate" at around 325fps (photo from H&N Excite Smart Shot BBs, Part 3, above:

    10-14-15-02-Smart-Shot-BBs-splats.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  23. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I think 10yds is probably a more valid test for these guns. Most of us will happily plink cans etc at that distance.
     
  24. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Alright then, that's what I'll stay with.
     
  25. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Orders coming and going...

    Just got a couple 6" long x 7/64" diameter drill bits from Widget Supply in the mail today so I'll be able to see if bigger is better as far as air tube ID goes. I've been using 3/32".

    Also sent an order to Ken of Daisy Gun Works for the barrel seal and plunger head (piston) for the little '70s era Daisy Model 104 I've mentioned before (and the gun that set me on this course of modifying/testing BB guns in general). I bought it >35 years ago at a yard sale for a couple bucks. It recently broke the piston (shown in post #51) but I was able to pin the front part of the piston to the air tube to get it working again. I chrono'rd it today and it was right at 240 fps. Not too bad, but still about 20 fps below what the new style Model 105 Buck averaged. So the new piston and seal will show something about what increases (if any) can be expected by renewing an old Daisy lever BB gun. And I'd also like to add that Ken was very helpful- called me on the landline to make sure of what I needed and quoted me a very good price for the parts.

    And lastly, sent another order to Ms. Zehm @ Daisy for a Model 10 plunger assembly (for spares) and a Model 499B shot tube assembly. The cost of this shot tube assembly has gone up since the price list I have was published- it's now $9.00. Now, this is a lot for a shot tube assembly but I'm very much hoping that the actual shot tube is manufactured to a higher standard than the shot tubes used in the pedestrian Daisy BB guns like the Red Ryder. In any event, the plan calls for replacing the stock shot tube of a Red Ryder w/the 499B shot tube. This will be just the shot tube, not the entire shot tube assembly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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