Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Airguns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Good to hear the about the adjustable hopup. I have a Umarex Colt Commander steel bb with a piece of “rubber” tubing extended from the top of e barrel. Not sure if it’s there to retain the bb or put spin on the bb—-or both?
    But it’s not adjustable. Gun is extremely accurate with the Daisy Match bbs.
    I’ve changed materials in RRider shot tube that I’ve notched in my attempts to create a hopup spin. First material Deteriorated rather quickly.
    Wish either an aftermarket supplier or ma Daisy would take an interest
     
  2. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Wouldn't that be nice!
    I'd like to see a CO2 accurate version of the RR.
     
  3. Inimical Jim

    Inimical Jim Member

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    I was pleasantly surprised to see this thread is still going and people are still messing with Red Ryders. I first visited this site 4 years ago after shooting in a RR spot shoot and I was looking for maximum accuracy. The organization didn't have the shoot for a few years and my RRs were forgotten about. Last month they started the shoots again. I won 2 $50 money rounds and my wife won a turkey. I was using a stock 38B with Hornady Black Diamond BBS and she was using a stock gun with Remingtons (that apparently aren't made anymore.)

    I bought Avanti, Crossman Black Widow, Marksman and Daisy Precision Max BBs and tested them at 10 yards. The best 10 shot groups I got were 1 15/16" using both the guns and the ammo we used at the spot shoots. I had high expectations for the Marksman but it was 2". I didn't know about oil in the bore and will make sure the next test is using a dry bore.

    Thanks for all of the experiments you have tried and information everyone has posted.
     
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  4. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Good shooting by you and your wife- sounds like you two cleaned up!

    I have heard good things about the Hornady Black Diamond BBs, and after hearing your report I need to retry them in a few guns, I only tested with them one time and they did well, but the Daisy Match Grade did marginally better on that day, in those guns. Since then a lot of time has gone by and I have shot a few of my guns thousands of times more, so I should be a better shot. Emphasis on should! lol
     
  5. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Hey IJim, Very good groups with factory irons. I have both of my 38Bs mounted with 4X scopes. I haven’t shot the Hornadys since I first got caught up in this insanity. Didn’t have much luck, but maybe I’ll try again.
    Using a set of 1” micrometers, I’ve measured all the bbs I’ve tested.
    Thinking the smaller the air gap, the better the accuracy ? Of course the bb has to be round also.
    Most commonly sold run about 0.172” including the Hornadys. The Daisy max about .002 bigger and the Marksmans about 0.177”. The 38B shot tubes I’ve checked ID about 0.1785”
    At any rate, at 33’ the Marksman are capable of 1 1/4” 10 shot groups.
    The smaller BBs will go 1 3/4” plus. And the bore needs to be oil free.
    Let us know how you and wife do.
     
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  6. Inimical Jim

    Inimical Jim Member

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    The next shoot is Sunday and I've been doing some testing/practicing. I did some bore cleaning before and after shots and the groups did tighten up. I've gotten my best groups with the Avanti BBs. 5/8" to 15/16" 5 shot groups at 10 yards. The 15/16" had one that ruined a nice group.

    I considered "cheating" to gain an advantage but quality ammo, a clean bore and practice have drastically improved my accuracy. If one person wins too much others take notice. My gun is stock other than taking out the rear sight riser. I will lie though. I put the Daisy match BBs in a $0.98 cent yellow tube and if anyone asks I'll say my secret is shooting between heartbeats. There will be no mention of $0.07 BBs, micrometers, Lyman D5 balance scale, bore swabs....;)

    I will update Sunday.
     
  7. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Good luck at your meet.
     
  8. Inimical Jim

    Inimical Jim Member

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    I won $50 and 25 brats. My wife was under the weather so she had to sit this one out. My shooting was very inconsistent and I need to figure out why. But I can't complain, some people have never won. I do well in my house at 10 yards but at 21 feet (estimated using ceiling tiles) I had some unexplainable spreads.

    The setup is 20 posts indoors at ~21 feet. A seat is $2 and the round doesn't start until all posts are sold. That stops people from waiting with binoculars and deciding not to shoot. 2 shots per post. Targets with more than 2 holes are disqualified (one of my targets had 4 holes...someone got confused). Money rounds are $5 with a $50 prize. There are 10-12 meat rounds (bacon, brats, bbq, turkey, ground beef, ham, cheese) and 1-2 money rounds. All dependent on turn out. Sometimes there's a kid's round with a Red Ryder prize.

    There was one blatant cheater a few years ago which was why I stopped going. He won 3 in a row and when I paid closer attention to his gun it wasn't a Red Ryder (or Buck or that other carbine that uses the same powerplant. 14? or something like that?). I knew the model at one time but I can't recall it now. An old Daisy that cocks on closing. I told the judge 5 of us were leaving if he was using that gun. The judge said, "it isn't a pump" and I said "it isn't a Red Ryder." The guy got huffy and said he wouldn't shoot anymore. Some people thanked me for saying something. The guy came to me to say he was just lucky and his gun was an old piece of crap. I pulled out a $100 bill but he wouldn't sell it.

    Thanks for reading. These are fun fundraisers for organizations and I've heard of some that award half a cow. I will help any way I can if someone wants to organize one.
     
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  9. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Interesting story and thanks for posting it. Good luck in the future.
     
  10. midland man

    midland man Member

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    hey do you have a couple of these hp springs for daisy red rider model 1938b if so please pm me how much shipped for two springs! thanks! :)
     
  11. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Sorry for the late reply- I've been locked out of logging in since I cleared my cookies some time ago. long story short I had to create a new email acct. to get back here!

    Please check your messages.

    Thanks, Mark
     
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  12. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    So I've been getting more and more messages asking about what tools are needed to disassemble a Daisy BB gun. The caulking gun for assembling the plunger assembly is easy, all that is needed to make it work is a bushing of some sort. I use a suspension washer because that's what fell to hand when I went to the shop digging around for something suitable to use. A large fender washer cut in two works just as well, if not better. Unless a HP spring is being used, a tool isn't even necessary.

    Even though the plunger fork can be made by most hobbyists, some folks just don't have the time, tools, workspace, or the inclination to make one. To help those people, I found a tool online and I found it works quite well. My tool (shown below) is the "medium" version of three that are offered. There's an economy model and a deluxe model with replaceable forks as well. They come with excellent instructions, too. The fellow who makes these tools is a genuinely good guy, easy to deal with and he stands behind what he sells, so I recommend his tools to anyone who's in need. These tools can be seen HERE.

    s-l1600.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
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  13. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    We've often talked about the virtues of using the Daisy model No. 25 shot tube to replace the gravity feed shot tubes in guns so equipped. One downside has been the supposed plastic barrel cap used on the new 25 shot tubes.

    Well, it turns out the caps are not plastic after all! I have a shot tube here that I have been using for MV testing for several years. It has seen many, many thousands of BB's run through it and it has been used in so many different guns that I lost count. It has started to show a little wear to the cap, and at first I didn't understand where it had picked up a silver deposit on the plastic cap, but after a closer look, I saw that the silver was the color of the cap under the paint. So, I used a VOM to check if the cap is conductive, and it is. I don't know yet what type of metal it is made from because I've not removed the cap yet (it's held on the end of the tube by a roll pin). Safe bet that it's either a zinc or aluminum alloy, though.

    A word on why I use the 25 shot tube to test MV. The quality and performance of gravity feed tubes vary, and then when wear is added the result is a huge variable when testing a gun's performance. By substituting the 25 shot tube, the true condition of the gun's powerplant can be determined. Then when the results are compared to the same gun with the original gravity feed tube installed, the condition of the original shot tube can be determined. For testing, it's not necessary to use any spacers to make the 25 tube fit the shroud of the gun being tested. I just screw it in snug and test over the chronograph. A few wraps of masking tape around the 25 tube's end cap is used so the cap fits the shroud ID.
     
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  14. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I'm 95% sure the No. 25 shot tube's end cap is a zinc alloy, it's definitely too heavy to be aluminum.

    I decided to shorten a 25 shot tube so I could use it without a spacer in a model 96 I have. It's a nice shooting gun in very decent condition. I replaced the trigger with one from a model 99, and Shane refinished a Daisy 99 stock that I put on it. The gravity feed shot tube works well enough, but I just like the 25 tube more, so...

    The process of shortening the shot tube went easily enough, it entails taking about 0.200" off the muzzle end of the inner BB tube and the outer shot tube 'cover' and taking a bit off the BB follower so it clears the fill hole when fully retracted. I should have taken a smidgen off of the spring, too, but I thought the spring could absorb the difference in length. But I found the spring wants to bulge out of the fill hole when the follower is pushed forward to lock it for filling the magazine- so I should have taken the same amount off of the spring as I did everything else. I used a bench grinder since the amount to remove wasn't very much, but a hacksaw or dremel could work, too. I cleaned the ends up with a dremel and recrowned the shot tube using a cratex point in the dremel. NOTE- The amount to remove from the shot tube can vary from gun to gun, so measure for the gun that the tube is going in before proceeding. On all the gravity feed guns I have around here, taking off 1/4" would make a shot tube that would fit them all. I hate giving away ANY length of the shot tube, but the 25 tube is already 1/4" longer than most gravity feed tubes, plus it's more efficient, so it's still a better option in my opinion.

    The only touchy part was drilling the hole through the outer cover for the roll pin. The edge of the hole is 0.038" from the end of the cover. On this one, I installed the end cap and used a spring-loaded center punch through the holes in the cap to mark the outer cover for drilling. Once the holes were in the outer cover, all that was left was to reassemble it, and that is straightforward and was uneventful.

    Unfortunately, when I installed the shortened 25 tube into the 96, the shot tube cap is causing the shroud to spread at the seam when it's tightened down. I should have test fit the cap into the end of the shroud when the shot tube was apart, so it's on me. I am considering my options for removing some material from the cap OD, but I've not decided on a method yet. Any ideas come to mind?

    IMGP1349.JPG

    25 SHOT TUBE DISASSEMBLY AA.jpg

    25 SHOT TUBE DISASSEMBLY CC.jpg

    25 SHOT TUBE DISASSEMBLY GG.jpg

    25 SHOT TUBE DISASSEMBLY HH.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  15. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Speaking of Shane the stock maker, he's also an accomplished airgunsmith. More of his work can be seen at his eBay store, Rest-O-Mod. Among his many projects, he's recently been hand making the components to turn a 111-40 into a "reverse cocker", aka "cock on closing" gun!

    A little history: Daisy only made a few models having this feature and all of them were made a long time ago (the late-'20s to mid-'30s), like the No. 3 and No. 30 model 27. The exact reason Charles Lefever came up with this cocking system is lost to history, but if I had to guess, I'd say there might have been a perceived cost saving and/or assembly advantage. And the lever doesn't slam one's fingers if the gun is handled carelessly. Sales of the reverse cockers topped out at around 80,000 per year for a few years but in the end (1933-'35) advertising dollars went elsewhere and sales dropped drastically.

    I am going to say upfront that I'm not 100% on how the reverse cockers work. Shane had planned to come by the house with several of his reverse cocker conversions and we were going to spend the day shooting them, and he was going to leave one with me to evaluate long-term. We were also going to take one apart to get me up to speed on their operation- but COVID-19 ruined that plan. Here are a few photos to help show how it works. The first photo is Shane's latest creation based on a basket-case 111-40 Red Ryder. This is the first time for seeing his hand made steel and leather "flex lever". It's designed to allow very fast cycling for an action game he's come up with that uses very rapid low-powered shots to keep a balloon aloft. This gun is set up to use the No. 25 shot tube, as many of his guns are- and it's also a reverse cocker.

    S-N 1 Restomod 111-40-27.png

    COCK ON CLOSING COMPONENTS w-text B.jpg

    thumbnail_IMG_20200208_213901.jpg

    thumbnail_IMG_20200208_213815.jpg .
     
  16. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    It's amazing the land mass of this country and you two ended up living that close together.
    I'm not crazy about tyrolene stocks but I like the way he did that one.
    Thanks for updating this thread.
     
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  17. Grayrock

    Grayrock Member

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    Perhaps in the 46 pages of posts there is a tutorial on disassembling my Red Ryder. The 1st 8 pages were showing me I was close to getting this info. I skipped to the end to ask for help. Mine is a 1940's vintage. Everything seems to work internally (it cocks and shoots) but no BB's come out. Can someone please point me in the right direction?
     
  18. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    I think your gun has a leather seal. It's probably dried out. Look for a hole on the receiver that has "oil" next to it and apply some 20 or 30w non-detergent oil. Start with 6 drops. Let it set for an hour then shoot it.
     
  19. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Cvans' suggestion is a very valid one- leather seals often need oil to bring back performance. But even if the seals are dry, there should still be a BB leaving the barrel.

    So, if your gun isn't shooting a BB at any speed, take the "shot tube" out of the gun. The shot tube is the removable part that has the small diameter tube that the BB shoots out from. The shot tube is removed by turning the cap CCW about 3 turns and pulling it out. Check the shot tube for a BB being jammed in the tube, or for something preventing a BB from reaching the barrel. If the shot tube checks out, shine a light into the end of the outer barrel and look to see if there's a 5/32" diameter x 2-1/2" long tube sticking up from the bottom of the barrel, right in the middle. If you don't see it, then that's at least part of the problem.

    red-ryder-A.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  20. Grayrock

    Grayrock Member

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    AHA! (My epiphany...) I do NOT see anything in the bottom of the open barrel. Would that tube break off and fall out? If so, is a replacement available? If so, how do I install it? Thank you very much for your insight.
     
  21. Grayrock

    Grayrock Member

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    I believe that mine is so old that it does not have the "OIL HERE" hole. My Model 25 does have it. My barrel is blued steel, not painted. Does that give a hint to when it was made?
     
  22. Grayrock

    Grayrock Member

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    The shot tube: on my Model 25 there is a little wire spring at the base. My 111/40 does not have a similar wire spring. Is it supposed to?
     
  23. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    For the most part your working on stuff older than I'm familiar with so hopefully Cobalt will get back to you.
    Good luck with your project.
     
  24. 3800fps

    3800fps Member

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    I just repaired a 1936 vintage model 25 with the air tube missing...a new modern air tube fits...but the flattened end needs to be shortened in such a way that it can be fitted into the end of the metal "plunger" that holds the leather seal....I fitted mine so that the air hole opening near the flat end was fully exposed... set in any deeper and it would encroach on the size of that opening...I got lucky because the length of the air tube happened to be just right...too long a bb won't feed and too short then the gun could "swallow" a bb...(ei get stuck under the seal)....once fitted and the correct length I soldered the tube in place....hope this helps.

    By the way...that 1936 spring was still straight and usable and is about as powerful as Cobalt's "power springs" which is to say this spring and his awesome spring is about all these Daisy engineered designs can handle to achieve max velocity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  25. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Yes, the air tube of leather seal guns were prone to break off. At some point, the broken piece would have either come out when the gun was shot, or it may have been manually removed from the shot tube after breaking off. The leather seal piston seals are available but the steel 'body' is not available from anywhere I'm aware of, except used, taken from a donor gun. I happen to have a complete used air tube/piston assembly with the leather seal intact. It will get you up and running, as long as the second leather seal at the bottom of the compression chamber is still okay in your gun. This seal is called the barrel seal. If it's bad, you can replace it with a rubber seal. More on that can be seen here: http://forum.daisymuseum.com/rejuvenate-or-replace-leather-seals_topic8070.html. It also covers how to oil the leather seals in a gun that has dry seals.

    Taking the gun apart and reassembling it isn't too hard but there are tools that are needed. You can make them if you're handy in the shop. Another option is to mail it to me for repair. I don't charge for labor but you'd be responsible for parts and shipping both ways. You can spend $60 pretty easily that way.

    The wooden stocked 111-40 Red Ryder was made from 1940 until early 1950 when they started using plastic. There are no Register Numbers so you need to use the various features to get an idea of when it was made, like aluminum or iron lever, adjustable elevation or not, blued or copper plated forearm and front sight bands.

    Yes. The spring keeps BBs from rolling out of the shot tube by gravity and keeps the gun from shooting 2 BBs at a time.
     
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