Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[TerryCowger]

Probably a dumb question, but it wont be the first one I've ask.
What does the abutment seal do ?
Is it a cushion for the piston seal to hit on ?
It looks to me all it may do is restrict the air flow through the air tube?
Can someone explain how this works to me and does it hurt to leave it out ?
Thanks for your time
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Terry, that's not dumb at all, in fact I would imagine it comes up often. And actually, earlier in this thread the same question was posed by one of the sharpest contributors to the thread. His thought was the seal was mostly unnecessary.

The abutment seal seals the air tube OD and secondarily, it helps direct the compressed air from the piston into the air tube intake port. It was found that without the seal, the power will be dismal- you could throw a BB further than a gun without a barrel seal can shoot one! Proof of this is how poorly a gun shoots when the abutment seal comes loose from the abutment and rides back and forth on the air tube. This is a common problem with the wide frame guns like the 95, 96, and 99. I don't know why they seem to be more prone to this.

So you do want to use an abutment seal!

 

[TerryCowger]

What you said hit me while I was sleeping last nite, I thought to my self why do they call it an abutment "seal" DUH It seals !
I do have the 95 and I must confess I have been shooting it without the seal and I seems OK ?
From what your saying though I'm giving up a bunch of power by not having it in there ?
If I remember I did have it in there and it did slide back and forth, at least when I took it apart it always came out with the piston/air tube assembly, so I just left it out.
Is there a fix?
Can I use contact cement to affix it to the abutment?
Would I off to make a new one, I have some 1/4" sheet rubber or leather ?
Am I correct that it should be a snug fit into the air chamber and the air tube ?
I hope I'm not asking to many questions, but as dad always said......"if ya dont ask".
Thanks for all your help it's greatly appreciated !
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

No worries about asking things. If I don't have an answer, someone here will- and it all benefits the communal knowledge base.

You could cut a seal from rubber sheet. Getting the air tube hole centered is important, and it should be sized so the air tube is a snug fit, but without undue friction.

It would be hard to believe the gun is shooting anywhere near its potential without a seal. It may be there was two seals and one is still in place, because without ANY seal, you wouldn't think the gun was shooting well at all. In any event, I wrote about the abutment seal replacement procedure I use HERE.

You can remove the shot tube and look into the barrel shroud to see if there's a seal. Work the lever, without fully cocking the gun. If there's no seal in place, you will see a wide opening around the air tube open up as the air tube and piston drops away.

 

[TerryCowger]

OK I see, I have some sheet rubber 1/8 & 1/4" I can make up one.
I have a seal on the other side of the shot tube do you think it could be the reason it still shoots?
I put it over the threads on the smoothe part so it would seal between the shot tube and the abutment from the shot tube side.
I can feel it squishing when I tighten the shot tube, dont know if it helps or seals ?

On another note in a different post you ask about the trigger spring I used and I said I tried a few until I found the one I liked .
What I forgot to tell you was I drilled the hole in the stock deeper so the longer spring I found wouldn't be so strong.
Then It was to week so I made a plug to fit inside the hole and shim the spring and make it stronger, this took some fiddling to get rite.
Thinking about this setup one could drill and tap the hole say to 1/4x20 and use a socket type set screw to adjust the tension of the spring. AKA adjustable trigger pull ?
Thanks again for you help.
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

If it's shooting even close to normally, the O-ring on the shot tube would have to be sealing. Remove it and see what it shoots like.

Nothing at all wrong with your idea for a capscrew to adjust the trigger return spring pressure. In my experience, unless the return spring is uber strong, the trigger pull weight is more a function of sear to trigger friction than the spring. That said, it all helps.

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply,
I checked the old abutment seal and it was snug on the air tube, so I put it back in, reassembled the gun and now it wont cock?
The gun was working really good and I took it apart to drill the air tube to .125 and other than the seal I've done nothing else.
I,m dumbfounded It's like the cocking lever cant pull the sear far enough for the rigger to latch?
Again the only thing I have done is put the seal back in and drill the tube, It also takes enormous energy to move the lever when it gets close to the trigger latch?
Could I somehow have coil bind, I have one of your springs in it ? I really cant see that cause it was working so well.
Any tips on getting the abutment seal back out without destroying it, I think the best thing for me to do is go back to the setup that was working.
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

My spring doesn't coil bind unless a spacer were to be used. You can remove the shot tube and see if cocking is any easier. That will remove any doubt about the air tube affecting it. Just don't use excessive force.

If that is no help, you can remove the plunger assembly, remove the barrel seal and you're back to where you were.

 

[TerryCowger]

I cant see it being coil bind either, Just thinking out loud.
Actually I've been doing all this with the shot tube removed.
I may take the air tube out and try it that way, just to see if I can get it to cock ?
I've also been thinking about this abutment seal and I'm thinking that as long as the abutment doesn't leak around where it mates to the barrel, does it really matter what side of the abutment the seal is on?
What you want is a closed system, If there are no leaks the air has to go out through the tubes.
With the seal on the shot tube side sealing the end of the shot tube to the abutment with an "O" ring doesn't put any drag on the air tube as it goes into the shot tube. Your also gaining about a 1/4" of stroke W/O the abutment seal if that makes any difference?
I'm probably all wrong here so please straighten me out if I am, we learn by asking and doing.
Then I replace all the part I screw up ! LOL
Terry

 

[TerryCowger]

I found the problem but I haven't a clue what to do about it?
It's not the shot or air tubes, nor is it the abutment seal.
I removed the stock and looked into the receiver end of the gun, what I found was when I pulled the cocking lever down was the plunger came towards the rear but it also came down as it came back, it is actually spreading the inner tube apart, this also does not let the trigger latch.
I cant figure out why the piston/spring assembly doesn't go straight back, as I cock it the sear is hitting the top of the inner tube then as I go farther it's being pulled down almost 1/2", at that point it jams and wont go any farther back, it also wants to rotate witch doesn't help either.
I noticed someone had put a screw on the end of there cocking lever because it was worn, so I drilled and taped a 2-56 hole and put a 2-56 button head screw on the end of my lever, didn't do anything other than cutting down on the wear.
Help ! ........I need Help ! ..................LOL
Thanks for any help or advise
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Try an unmodified lever.

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply Mark
I think I found the problem and maybe a partial fix ?
I found that when I cocked the gun the plunger assembly at the but stock would get pulled down into the receiver as I stated above.
So what I did was make a Delrin washer that just slips over the piston/ram and is just a few thousands smaller that the piston seal. I put this on before the spring, kind of like a thin spacer aprox.1/8" so it slides freely in the tube and should keep the part centered in the tube ?
My hope is the washer being a close fit to the ID of the tube will also keep the piston assembly from getting pulled downward ?
A major problem I found was the open part of the tube inside the receiver was bent open from cocking allowing the cocking plate to move downward when cocking, so I straightened that part of the tube and that helped a bunch.
I also removed the abutment seal and I had already removed the small screw I had on the end of the cocking lever (that was causing problems).
It's back to cocking and shooting so that's a plus, but I still want to try to get it sliding straight back instead of back and down. It's better but I can see it still wants to come down when cocked.
Here's what my model 95 with "no" abutment seal does to a piece of K&S .010 Tin with regular Daisy BB's at about 20-24 feet.
I also shot it with my grandson's RR witch is stock for comparison.
.

 

[cobalt327]

I've not run into anything like that before. Are there spot welds that have failed?

 

[TerryCowger]

No Sir all spot welds are good.
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

I don't know what to make of it. I've never encountered it, and this is the first time I have had anyone report such a thing, so there's just nothing to go on. Weird.

 

[TerryCowger]

Only thing I can think of is that the bottom of the tube inside the receiver has no support, there is nothing to keep it from spreading.
Is it possible that it got spread apart when I cocked the gun with out the but stock ?
Maybe the lack of integrity w/o all the screws allowed it to spread?
I can watch it try to spread as I cock the gun with the stock off.
I'm going to take it apart this week and take some pictures, I'll post them maybe you can see what I dont?
Thanks Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Terry, in my experience, cocking w/o a buttstock hasn't caused a problem other than being awkward to do. And more importantly, if the lever is closed too far it will contact the trigger and fire the gun. But I've also learned that most anything's possible when dealing with these guns!

 

[Ratte]

Terry - is it possible you re-installed the plunger assembly upside down (i.e. 180 degrees out), so the lever is pulling the assembly down? Or does your gun not use the angled sear catch?

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply Rattle
Nope it uses the straight sear catch, the gun is working now but it still wants to pull the assembly down.
I am in the process of taking the whole thing apart and looking for problems as I go, as I said it is working but I know it can work better. I just have to figure it out.
I want to shoot a hole through a tin can, it dents one pretty good, but I want that hole ! LOL

Terry

 

[TerryCowger]

Bad news for me.....................
I put the gun back together, everything polished and as perfect as I can make it.
The sear catch was polished like a mirror the cocking lever was also polished and smoothed.
I was careful to align everything as good as I could and check for binds.
ALL FOR NOT!
After about 60 BB's It's back to not cocking?
I know what it's doing, I can see what it's doing ! But I dont know what to do to fix it?
I'm seriously thinking about putting a roller on the cocking lever tip ?
My thoughts are that it may allow the lever to role instead of drag/gouge on the sear catch as it pushes it to the rear ?
If it works it would be great, if not ...............I would be looking for or making a cocking lever ?
How about some pictures, everybody likes pictures ?
First is the normal uncocked position the second is showing it pulled back and jammed on the bottom of the inner tube in the receiver witch results in it not being able to go back far enough to cock and also spreads open and bends the tube open at the bottom. When this happens it allows it to drop even further down the next time it's cocked.
The third picture is inside the top of the receiver tube where the sear catch is gouging it.
So the cocking lever is pushing it up at the beginning of the stroke and pulling it down at the end of the stroke?
As always any advise or suggestions are "very welcome".
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

The photo compares a bare frame to your frame. It shows the extent your inner tube has become deformed. The corners adjacent to my arrows (made for a different post) look sharp, and the gap narrower than what I'm seeing on your gun. Putting it back right will be a chore- to put it mildly.

The brass tube the trigger is now riding on looks to prevent the walls from closing up when the screw is tightened. Can you shorten the tube and retry?

Do you have another stock, unfettered lever you can substitute for the one in the gun now? My thought is, if your lever tip is shorter from adding/subtracting things, the geometry will be off.




This is a model 99 on the right to give another comparison view of the tube gaps.

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply colbalt327
You are 100% correct the tube is spread apart, the thing is I have straightened the tube a couple of times.
When I do, the gun works great for about 100 shots but then gets spread apart again by the sear plate.
The brass trigger "tubing" is not tubing, I machined the parts to take the slop out of the trigger and they are not touching the inner tube at all as there is a larger hole in it so it doesn't foul the screw. If I over tighten the trigger screw it would not squeeze the inner tube as it only contacts the outer receiver on each side and would only strip the threads or deform the receiver.
The screws on either side of the but stock along with the cocking lever screw seem to set the width of the receiver witch still doesn't affect the inner tube.
When I straighten the inner tube I am careful how much I close it because If I close it to much the piston wont go into it.
I believe you are also correct it's in the cocking lever. I have not really altered the lever other than I drilled and taped a 2-56 hole into it.
I dont know if the tip of the lever was already worn down and that's causing the problem, (how old is this gun, who knows whats happened during it's life? )
I have nothing to compare it to this is the only 95 I have and I dont know if my grandsons new RR is the same?
If you look at my last picture you can see where the sear plate is rubbing/gouging the inside top of the tube, that tells me the assembly is being pushed up as it starts to go back and then pulled down as it goes back farther until it is down so far it spreads the bottom of the tube apart, at that point it wont cock.
This last time I assembled the gun I made sure I had "everything" polished to a mirror finish and the inner tube was repaired and looked like the picture of your gun.
It's like the cocking lever is not sliding on the sear plate ? This is why I am thinking of putting a roller tip on the cocking lever.
At this point I have nothing to loose and I dont have another lever to try.
Does any of this make sense?
Thanks again !
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

FWIW, the 'Ryder lever will work fine. No problem with it being curved. At the very least it'll eliminate the lever as the problem.

 

[TerryCowger]

Thank's for the info.
I have it totally apart at the moment but when I get it back together I will try that first thing.
Good thing the grandson is in school this week so I wont get caught. LOL
I got the inside tube straightened, I used a deep socket that fit perfect inside it and got it looking pretty good.
Actually the metal is fairly soft so it bends easily. (part of the problem)
I also honed all the gouges out of the inside of the inner tube so it's now nice and smooth and I will repolish the sear plate and I'm working on putting a roller on the tip of the cocking lever.
Your comment about the geometry of the lever tip being off got me thinking that maybe without the abutment seal the whole assembly would be about 1/4" farther into the hole, would that change the geometry ?
Do you think this could be the issue?
I think when I reassemble it I will put the abutment seal back in just for giggles and grins .
Thanks again !
Terry

 

[kell]

I gotta Red Ryder 1988 50th anniversary model with a little gold medalion in the stock. (Present from my wife). Will shoot thru both sides beer can. Shoot thru bottom and leave dent on top.
My childhood (I'm 73) mdl 102 will sometimes penetrate one side, sometimes not.
You have to say one thing - Daisy made a gun that would last!