Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[Ratte]

​

After countless assemblies/disassemblies, tweeks, fittings and functional checks - cleaned everything up and carefully glued and sealed for the final (hopefully) time.
I use 91% isoproyl alcohol, J-B Weld (don't use to glue strong magnets), Gorilla Glue clear epoxy, Permatex Threadlocker Blue and GE 100% clear silicone sealent.
For lube I use (very sparingly) Remington Rem Oil w/ Teflon Lubricant and NAPA Sil-Glyde Lubricating Compound.

It's tedious but - "If you can't find the time to do it properly the 1st time, where will you find the time to re-do it." Roger Penske

Now I just have to wait patiently for everything to cure properly.



Patience my a**, I want to shoot something!

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

Looking good, could you explain how it all works?
Are you going to test with an air tube and without an air tube?
I'd be very curious about those numbers
What size is the final air hole in the abutment?
Terry

 

[Ratte]

This gun rocks!
​

Loaded 25 Daisy Match Grade BBs (the max number this design holds) and was warmiing it up. The first dozen shots were like "wow - this thing really sends them down range in a hurry" - I was shooting at my stockade back fence about 75' away in the dark - ( the Bride was not happy)! The loading cycle was flawless - no misfeeds, double feeds or jams. As I cocked the gun for the 13th shot, I fell a little grinding thru the lever. The 14th was worse.

Pulled the stock and trigger and observed that the top of the power plant at the seer end was being forced against the top of the receiver during the last half of the cocking cycle. Knocked it off for the night.

Think I know what the problem is and am very pleased with the way the gun shoots. We'll sort it out tomorow - I can't wait to see the numbers!

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

The suspense is Killing me!
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Terry

It appears I have a minor case of the seer end of the power plant riding up and scrapeing the top of the receiver. I used a piston assembly from a 499b (which can also be used in the Model 95 (or other wide frame models) as long as you grind off the area that extends down for clearence because of the inner shroud. Since I had been working on a Model 25 I dutifully ground off the excess and used it for this build because I felt it was a better piece.

Cobalt - your thoughts?

In the mean time, I did what any self-respecting"technician" would do - I put some "Schmutz" on it!
If that doesn't help I'll swap in a Red Ryder based piston assembly and see if that helps.

Right now I'm going to figure out my new Chrono and give it a shot!

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

.......................... here's the problem............tnope that's not it................................oh! I see it now
where did it go?................................
Hope this helps?
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Terry, et al

Did a complete tear-down and inspection and found a few issues and what I believe to be a major weakness in the Model 25 shot tube assembly. Cobalt pointed it out years ago!

Also rebuilt the power plant based on the Red Ryder piston assembly - stock spring w/ 4x1/8" washers and standard "rubber" piston plugged with silicon seal - just in case the old one was the problem.

Buttoned her all up and waiting for things to cure. WE' WILL HAVE ANSWERS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THIS AFTERNOON!

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

"Terry, et al" Not sure what that means, Hope you didn't take offense to my post ?
(meant no disrespect just having fun)
I had a similar cocking problem and cured it by putting a roller tip on my cocking lever. I did find the more spring I put in the gun the worse the problem got.
You may want to try one of Shanes parts that reverses the cocking action, although you may have already solved the problem ?
Good luck, I hope you figure it out and get some great numbers out of it.
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Terry

"et al" - and others.

No offense at all - this is a hobby - it's supposed to be fun - so as Keven Costner said in "Bull Durham" - "So let's have some fun out there!"

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[cobalt327]

Terry, I believe he meant, "Terry, and others who are watching"... that sort of thing.

Terry, et al

Did a complete tear-down and inspection and found a few issues and what I believe to be a major weakness in the Model 25 shot tube assembly. Cobalt pointed it out years ago!

Also rebuilt the power plant based on the Red Ryder piston assembly - stock spring w/ 4x1/8" washers and standard "rubber" piston plugged with silicon seal - just in case the old one was the problem.

Buttoned her all up and waiting for things to cure. WE' WILL HAVE ANSWERS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THIS AFTERNOON!

Cheers!
"Ratte"

The legs can sometimes bow inwards enough to contact the spring anchor. This usually resolved itself in due time, but in stubborn cases I have ground the anchor a bit where it passes through the plunger tube legs and that ended the scraping in my case.

There can be contact with the top of the receiver from the sear end of the plunger tube, but usually not so much that there's any hard metal-to-metal contact, although you may have an odd case of that very thing happening. But I'd suspect the spring anchor to legs first. I wish I'd have remembered this earlier when Terry was having problems, but I think his was unrelated to the legs vs. anchor.

The piston used should make no difference, so if the issue resolves, I'd be cautious about assuming it was due to changing pistons.

I have also modified the 499 shot tube to use in a wide body gun. I believe I posted this here earlier, but not positive. There should have been a photo accompanying it, if I did post about it.

 

[TerryCowger]

All is good, sometimes people take me the wrong way and I certainly dont want that here, and I agree lets keep having fun !
Your rite colbalt in fact I think I posted pictures of the gouges inside my gun, that all went away when I put the roller on the cocking lever . There must be other ways though, just have to find them?

colbalt now you've given me something else to ponder................spring anchor scrape and what does it cost in power loss ?
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Cobalt

Great minds think alike! I had "massaged" the spring anchor and the plunger tube, but two things stand out in my mind.
On assembly I had more trouble than usual installing the power plant (I attributed it to the 4 washers).
Second, during test firing everything was fine until cocking for the thirteenth shot when the scraping noise and resistance to cocking was present!
Needless to say, performance when to "S**T" and I called it a Night.

Terry - what does spring anchor scrape cost in power loss? - it's like driving with the emergency brake on!

Back to work

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[Ratte]

BREAKING NEWS

1st Shot Out of theGun - 459.5 FPS
25 Shot Average - 457.2 FPS
25 Shot Repeater test - No Dry Fires/Double Feeds/Jams

"Air Tubes" - "We Don't Need No Stinking Air Tubes!"

Cheers!
"Ratte"
​

 

[cobalt327]

That's a lotta fps for a repeater!

 

[TerryCowger]

I'm impressed very good numbers, what BB's are you using and how's the accuracy ?
Can/would you post the setup?
If you wish to keep it to yourself that's OK I'm sure we all understand.
Again Congrats's to you, all your hard work has payed off !
Keep up the good work!!
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Cobalt

Thanks!

Clarification - when I said "changed the piston" I meant changed the whole power plant assembly, just to cover all the bases. In addition to the scraping along the top of the receiver,close inspection of the plunger tube revealed scrape marks along the top "rails"? where they were rubbing the top of the spring anchor where it widened out. Hadn't come across that before!
The simple solution is to drill a hole thru the receiver where the spring anchor slot is, stick a 1/4" bolt down thru the legs and convert that spring anchor into a fishng lure!
Would certainly make life easier.

Question?? - How do you add the lines and arrows and descriptions (sounds like an Arlo Guthrie lyric) on to the pictures you insert to your posts?

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[Ratte]

Terry

Thanks!

Daisy Match Grade precision ground shot for most testing, otherwise good old "WallyWorld" Precision Grade BBs.
This is a test bed, not concerned with accuracy - besides no front sight!
Standard Red Ryder spring w/ 2 steel + 2 nylon washers 1/8" thick each, rubber piston plugged w/ silicon seal, modded 499b abutment w/1/2" Delrin Air Transport Tube 1/4" OD x 1/8" ID.

This project was more of a "proof of concept" to aid in the development of an automatic breech loading mechanism. (Can you say "Patent Pending")?

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[cobalt327]

Ratte, your air inlet is now much closer to a pellet gun's "transfer port" (TP for short) than an air tube. FWIW, in the pellet gun world, playing with the TP diameter is an oft-done modification. Some guns come with interchangeable inserts for tuning the gun to a particular pellet weight, and/or to maximize shot count or even MV.

The photos are doctored using a program called HyperSnap.

 

[Ratte]

Cobalt

Thank you sir!

There are several follow ups I need to do, but one of the 1st is to optimize the TP size for this basic configuration.

The very first page of this forum sucked me in as a challenge. Take an in-expensive fun little gun and make it better. "More Bang for the Buck" as I am fond of saying!

Well, i've got to get back to work - the "warden" just assigned more yard duty.

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[Ratte]

Salute!
"Ratte"​

 

[Ratte]

Cobalt or Terry

Could you please measure the thickness of the abutment that the removeable shot tube screws into in the older guns - I currently don't have any laying around.

Also, that wet looking material inside the modded 499b abutment is silicon seal that encases the Delrin tube and fills the void - the M25 shot tube screws in to butt against it.
I also ground off the small protrusion on the back to have a broader mating surface depending on wether or not I used a rubber O-ring.
Interesting aside - if you carefully measure and slice or grind off more you can negate the need for a spacer on the muzzle end !

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[TerryCowger]

I would if I could, I only have two BB guns.
One is my USA made 95 and the other is a RR that belongs to my 8yr old grandson and the boss say's "hands off that one!"
I haven't taken the abutment out of the older 95 and seeing as it's hitting at consistent 460's, I doubt I will be any time soon ?
I would bet colbalt or maybe Shane will have your answer though ?
Good luck and keep up the good work, looking forward to see some more blistering numbers from that beast.
Terry

 

[Ratte]

Terry

I believe they are welded in - I'm guessing ~5/16" - 3/8"?

Cheers!
"Ratte"

 

[cobalt327]

Not sure how thick, but I'll ask Shane to see if he knows.

Hinz57 dissected a couple guns to show their construction. The abutment isn't welded, and when the barrel seal is removed and everything is degreased, you can look into one side and shine a light through the other side and see light passing around parts of the abutment! Here's a composite photo of Hinz57s' work:

 

[Ratte]

Cobalt - thanks, that last picture tells me all I need to know. (It's difficult to keep track of all the info and resources tucked away in this thread)!
Going to have to re-read the whole thing again!

Doing some more abutment mod experimentation work - no rest for the weary.

Cheers!
"Ratte"