Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[MG81]

I don't want to disrupt this threads interesting and highly customized direction it has taken with my mundane information. But I thought the group might benefit from some more data points regarding what velocities could be expected from various spring and air tube combinations.

The host guns are a Model 99 and 299. (Both guns are pretty identical except for the 299 being a bit shorter in the shot tube area and needing a spacer to use a Model 25 shot tube. Otherwise they use the same seals and the guts appear to be the same.) This has been my favorite model of Daisy to date. The all metal factory trigger group is very nice for a BB gun. A little grease and quick cleaning up of the sear surfaces and the trigger in these is as good or better than my Model 499 (Sadly, they can't touch the accuracy of the model 499. But they are still plenty accurate for ventilating cans in the backyard).

Chronograph data points:

-BB used were cheap, standard Daisy BB's.
-New seals installed within the last 1,000 shots
-seals oiled with 20 wt motor oil
-both had new production Model 25 shot tubes installed.


-New production Red Ryder spring shimmed with a 1/2" spacer and a 3/32" air tube from Cobalt327:
270, 278, 279, 280, and 281.

-Cobalt327 Super Spring installed and 7/64" air tube from Cobalt327:
330, 336, 338, 339, 340, 343, and 343.

 

[302w]

Hello everyone. I've been reading this thread for a few days now, and I have to say, I'm hooked!

I'm only on page 40 or so, but is anyone hot rodding Model 25's?

I have a 111-40 and a new 1938B that I'd like to upgrade new air tubes in with a Cobalt 327 spring for the 1938B. I'd like to buy a new Model 25 and hop it up a bit, because it seems like fun!

 

[cobalt327]

I don't want to disrupt this threads interesting and highly customized direction it has taken with my mundane information. But I thought the group might benefit from some more data points regarding what velocities could be expected from various spring and air tube combinations.

The host guns are a Model 99 and 299. (Both guns are pretty identical except for the 299 being a bit shorter in the shot tube area and needing a spacer to use a Model 25 shot tube. Otherwise they use the same seals and the guts appear to be the same.) This has been my favorite model of Daisy to date. The all metal factory trigger group is very nice for a BB gun. A little grease and quick cleaning up of the sear surfaces and the trigger in these is as good or better than my Model 499 (Sadly, they can't touch the accuracy of the model 499. But they are still plenty accurate for ventilating cans in the backyard).

Chronograph data points:

-BB used were cheap, standard Daisy BB's.
-New seals installed within the last 1,000 shots
-seals oiled with 20 wt motor oil
-both had new production Model 25 shot tubes installed.


-New production Red Ryder spring shimmed with a 1/2" spacer and a 3/32" air tube from Cobalt327:
270, 278, 279, 280, and 281.

-Cobalt327 Super Spring installed and 7/64" air tube from Cobalt327:
330, 336, 338, 339, 340, 343, and 343.

Thanks for posting your results, and I assure you that your post is relevant!

 

[cobalt327]

Hello everyone. I've been reading this thread for a few days now, and I have to say, I'm hooked!

I'm only on page 40 or so, but is anyone hot rodding Model 25's?

I have a 111-40 and a new 1938B that I'd like to upgrade new air tubes in with a Cobalt 327 spring for the 1938B. I'd like to buy a new Model 25 and hop it up a bit, because it seems like fun!

Welcome! There's no hop up spring for the 25. The new 25 uses a shorter spring than the Red Ryder and is also is made of smaller diameter wire, so even substituting the 25 spring for a 1938B spring won't work. I'll send you a PM about the other.

 

[TerryCowger]

Could you cut coils off the colba327 spring ? Make it the same size?
Dont know what that would to to the power of the spring, probably make it stronger and I dont know how that would work out?
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

We cut coils from a standard 1938B Red Ryder spring to make it the same length as a new 25 spring, and in a current production 25 it was a fail. Balky cocking and iffy trigger lock-up. Unfortunately going by that I can't imagine my spring would fare any better.

ETA- My part in this was to shorten the spring. It was then donated to an acquaintance who wanted to try it as an experiment. The results I cited were his comments.

ETA 2 1-6-23 edited for clarity

 

[302w]

Is there a great difference in running a Model 25 shot tube/barrel on a 1938B versus stock?

 

[cobalt327]

There's an average ~ 15-20 fps gain. Some like it because of no BBs rattling around inside the barrel shroud. To convert the '38B to use a 25 shot tube requires a fair amount of work- a 499 abutment has to be D&T'ed for the 25 ST to screw into, and something needs to be done about the hole in the side of the shroud where the loading port was, and a front sight has to be made, or a rail installed for optics or a red dot.

 

[TerryCowger]

We cut coils from a standard 1938B Red Ryder spring to make it the same length as a new 25 spring, and in a current production 25 it was a fail. Balky cocking and iffy trigger lock-up. Unfortunately going by that I can't imagine my spring would fare any better




So I'm confused.......(witch is normal for me) If you cut the spring to the same size and it fits the plunger assembly, where is the problem?
Is it that the plunger or trigger sear is different ? I can see cocking being harder but that comes with the more powerful spring, unless it's coil bind somehow?
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

The only change was supposed to be the spring. I was given the results without a post mortem. Last I heard he put the original spring back in it, switched to Marksman BBs and is content with the extra 25 fps they gave him.

 

[302w]

Does anyone have a preferred material for shimming/preloading a 25 spring?

Unfortuanately I don't have a lathe or access to delrin. If store bought PVC won't work, I may ask a friend to 3d print a 1/2" spacer.

 

[cobalt327]

Way back in the beginning I used 1/2" copper pipe. Not ideal, though.

 

[TerryCowger]

I use the steel center tube out of an auto shackle bushing, they are hardened and thick wall, but hard to cut.
Not sure it will work in the model 25 though?
T.C.

 

[302w]

Dumb question. What is the orientation of a Red Ryder abutment seal? They're tapered and I believe the wide end of the taper should be facing the front of the gun. (Installing in a 111-40 and it's getting stuck on something in the receiver)

I'm struggling to seat it as it's getting stuck on something. I'll watch some Restomod Daisy videos in the meantime.

Edit: I installed the abutment flat (narrow taper) side forward with ridge side facing the shooter. Hope I'm right, since I replaced a leather abutment seal and I couldn't compare.

I dry fired it twice to function check and it's very clear that this OE spring has a lot more power to it than the new 1938B. Will chrono tomorrow.

Also found my first Daisy.. a model 960. Don't think I'll be chasing high FPS with that one.

 

[302w]

111-40, with Cobalt 327 airtube, stock spring, new seals: 272 FPS

With Model 25 shot tube: 313 FPS

Stock 1938B: 242 FPS

Stock Model 25: 267 FPS

 

[cobalt327]

Good job! You installed the abutment seal correctly, and I'll be willing to bet that as the piston seats in, the fps will increase. I'll repost the orientation below.

 

[TerryCowger]

I decided to try a repeater type RR not getting the numbers I wanted?
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

I decided to try a repeater type RR not getting the numbers I wanted?
Terry

I dunno, Terry... seems like a freaking flamethrower to me, especially considering you cut inches off the shot tube- which lowers MV. Am I missing something?

Anyway, am I understanding it correctly that it feeds BBs via spring loaded onboard magazine?? If so, mind *blown*!

 

[TerryCowger]

So I learned something this morning, I did not know that a shorter barrel would cut down the MV.
I feel a little better about it now.
My concern is/was I'm only getting a little over 400 FPS with the colbalt spring, 300's w/ stock RR spring.
For comparison I am getting over 460 with my Kentucky rifle with a stock spring ?
Anyway it's a work in progress, proof of concept type thing and any suggestions or constructive criticism are very welcome.
Oh, almost forgot..................there is no spring.
Terry

 

[teerex.otw]

No spring ? So it’s gravity fed, single-file thru a tube…is the tube sealed ?
There’s gotta’ be a way to adapt a 25 tube to work like that…I’d gladly trade a spring follower for a sealed tube that blocks off a path for air to escape !
Also, why did you shorten the barrel ?

Rex

 

[TerryCowger]

Yep It's gravity and a magnet at the very end of the breach, it magnetizes probably the first 5-7 BB's in the feed tube to keep them inline for loading.
Hers a drawing of how it works below.
About the barrel all I had was short pieces of CF to make a barrel and I kinda had it in my mind to make a short gun since I had already made a long gun so it worked out OK.
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

We've seen a LOT of builds come down the pike since this thread began in 2016, but few, if any, rival the ingenuity yours continually show. My hat is off to you, sir!

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks Mark, your to kind, greatly appreciated !

I was thinking that maybe this could be applied to a model 25 shot tube assembly?
Replace the BB feed with solid tubing bringing it out the front of the muzzle, ditch the sliding part the spring pushes, seal the end and see what happens?
The spring could still be used, it would just have be loaded after the BB's .
I was thinking of using a spring to push a fitted plunger that would keep the BB's pushed together and seal the feed tube better
I found the tubing I used is smaller than the daisy spring so I will have to make or find a spring that will work?
Another project, how to make a spring?
So I don't confuse everyone, I did change the plunger head to a machined part and I also found that it worked better with only one "O" ring.
I have a few pictures of this build showing the set up, I'll post them and maybe get some comments on how to make it better?
Thanks for looking !
Terry

 

[teerex.otw]

Hi Terry,
I’ve been studying your design (impressive work, by the way !), but I do have a couple of questions; if you added a spring & plunger to the feed tube, would it “double feed” ? In an air tube design the air tube blocking feed is what prevents another bb from entering (most of the time…I still get some double feeds w/25 tubes). Without spring tension, I’m guessing it’s air pressure from the shot pushing bb’s back into the feed tube that’s preventing doubles (probably why mv is dropping halfway through a magazine-full…solid objects-bb’s, being replaced with air space, which is compressible, may be robbing power by redirecting pressure).
On an air tube design a sealed feed tube would probably work quite well, because air loss would be going into a captive system and compressing rather than just leaking out, and would also have the air tube blocking the feed port (hopefully) preventing doubles.
Have you tried shooting upward at between a 45 and 90 degree angle to see if weight of bb’s in the feed tube is able to overcome air pressure and double-feed ?
This entire concept is getting very interesting…more unexplored territory !

Rex

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the encouragement Rex
The BB fill tube is sealed when shooting in fact I made a video of the gun with a big syringe hooked up to it and did a leak test, seemed pretty well sealed?
I haven't had any of the BB's double loading, in fact I haven't had and dry fires mine shoots down to the last BB.
I made it so the next BB to be shot loads "directly" over the one in the breach, if it's not directly over center it may bind the BB being shot, I did notch the magnet and barrel so the BB would fall straight down into the breach ready to shoot.
The magnet in my assembly will magnetize and hold 17 BB's in place. The model 25 magnet will hold 7 BB's in place so there's a big difference there, but It only has to hold two to work.
The fitted plunger with a spring is a good idea, I just haven't found a spring that will work. The BB fill tube I used is smaller than the M25 fill tube so a smaller spring will have to be found.
If I use larger fill tubing it would create a larger problem with more "air space" around the BB's ?
These things are funny, It may only take a 1" piece of fitted brass rod to solve the problem..................or it may take a super heavy small spring and plunger?
If I get some time in the next day or two I'll try to shoot a full magazine and record the numbers, maybe that will tell us when the power is dropping off ? Probably have to do it two or three times to be sure it's accurate.
I do think the Model 25 shot tube assembly could be modified to work and I will probably see if I can do it ? Just have to round up some parts and put the thinking cap on.
Don't let me stop you from trying if you have Ideas on how this can be done please do it ?
So are you as confused as I am ?
Terry