Puzzling about ghost guns

[PapaG]

Just heard that IL has a ban on ghost guns and Biden will release an executive order for a similar prohibition. The big thing is no serial numbers.
There's a bunch of pre-1968 firearms out there with no serial number including my 24 Savage and a couple others.
Will they now be suspect? Have to get "numbered"!
Seems the great leaders still fail to think these things through.
Anybody have more complete information?

 

[F-111 John]

There is another thread that has a link to the actual rules that were adopted today.

The rules regarding "ghost guns" are only aimed at "PMF" personally manufactured firearms, and only when they are taken in by an FFL. When an FFL takes a PMF in for repair or to resell, he must mark the PMF with a serial number that contains a portion of the FFL's license number plus a unique identifier number.

Since pre-1968 firearms (I own a pre '68 Sears Ted Williams 20 gauge shotgun with no serial number) are not "personally manufactured firearms," they wouldn't fall under the mandatory markings rule by an FFL, if I am correctly interpreting the new rules.

 

[PapaG]

Thank you

 

[jdsingleshot]

Worst thing about Biden's edict (apart from his making laws outside Congress) is that FFLs are no longer allowed to destroy records after 20 years. Only good thing is that the rules don't go into effect immediately, so there is time to fight them.

 

[weeniewawa]

executive orders only apply to federal employees and people who are under federal contracts.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

My thought is when will they start serializing upper receivers and requiring NICS checks for those as well?

I predict a run on uppers in the very new future, with the expected spike in prices, of course.

 

[barnetmill]

My thought is when will they start serializing upper receivers and requiring NICS checks for those as well?

I predict a run on uppers in the very new future, with the expected spike in prices, of course.

It would be foolish run, but it could happen with all of this hysteria. This is mostly political drama and paying back by the POTUS of political debts to the antigun left.
My next upper I will likely assemble myself to get it just the way I want it.
If you wanted lower 80% receivers there was plenty of time to get one and apparently they are still being sold for the next 120 days. As far as I know most can still go about their hobbies without too much trouble.
This will go to court and the POTUS the US likely does not care how the court decides. He did the antigun thing that his followers wanted and we all know it will do little to stop crime.
Most of the headline killings are by criminal gangs with their fingers in the drug trade. That means they will have enough money to buy guns and the killing will continue. Everyone in american wants guns that even includes a lot of the liberals.
With advances in 3D printing technology it seems that people can likely print some usable lowers. The gangs are apparently using 3D full auto glock switches. I suspect full auto key cards for the AR will be next.

 

[F-111 John]

My thought is when will they start serializing upper receivers and requiring NICS checks for those as well?

I predict a run on uppers in the very new future, with the expected spike in prices, of course.

Any firearm where the ATF has already determined which part is serialized prior to the published date of the new ruling will continue to use the previously recognized part. In the case of AR pattern firearms, the rules explicitly say the lower receiver is the serialized part.

(f)(1) Frame or receiver classifications based on which part of the weapon was classified as such before [FEDERAL REGISTER: PLEASE INSERT DATE OF PUBLICATION]. Except as provided in paragraph (2), the terms “frame” and “receiver” shall include the specific part of a complete weapon, including variants thereof, determined (classified) by the Director to be defined as a firearm frame or receiver prior to [FEDERAL REGISTER: PLEASE INSERT DATE OF PUBLICATION]. Any such part that is identified with an importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number shall be presumed, absent an official determination by the Director or other reliable evidence to the contrary, to be the frame or receiver of the weapon. The following is a nonexclusive list of such weapons and the specific part determined by the Director to be the firearm frame or receiver as they existed on that date:

(i) AR-15/M-16 variant firearms: The receiver is the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer (i.e., lower receiver).​

 

[AlexanderA]

executive orders only apply to federal employees and people who are under federal contracts

It's not an "executive order." It's a change to the Regulations.

My thought is when will they start serializing upper receivers and requiring NICS checks for those as well?

As F-111 John points out, it's clear that AR-type uppers will not be required to be serialized.

However, there's plenty of other stuff to be worried about. I've just started studying it. It's going to take a long time to understand the implications.

Potentially the most important thing in this whole mess is the new definition of the word "readily."

 

[F-111 John]

It's not an "executive order." It's a change to the Regulations.

Potentially the most important thing in this whole mess is the new definition of the word "readily."

Yes, I agree that the definition of "readily convertible" has been changed to possession of an 80% lower, unfinished, and a corresponding jig or template for that 80% lower.

According to this rule, that constitutes a firearm.

(c) Partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver. The terms “frame” and “receiver” shall include a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver, i.e., to house or provide a structure for the primary energized component of a handgun, breech blocking or sealing component of a projectile weapon other than a handgun, or internal sound reduction component of a firearm muffler or firearm silencer, as the case may be. The terms shall not include a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, unmachined body, or similar article that has not yet reached a stage of manufacture where it is clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon (e.g., unformed block of metal, liquid polymer, or other raw material). When issuing a classification, the Director may consider any associated templates, jigs, molds, equipment, tools, instructions, guides, or marketing materials that are sold, distributed, or possessed with the item or kit, or otherwise made available by the seller or distributor of the item or kit to the purchaser or recipient of the item or kit. The following are nonexclusive examples that illustrate the definitions:

Example 1— Frame or receiver: A frame or receiver parts kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver.
...
Example 4— Not a receiver: A billet or blank of an AR-15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or formed that is not sold, distributed, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver.​

So it appears that anyone merely in possession of an "80%" frame or receiver, and a jig or template to complete the 80% frame, is in possession of a firearm, even if that frame or receiver has not been completed.

 

[AlexanderA]

So it appears that anyone merely in possession of an "80%" frame or receiver, and a jig or template to complete the 80% frame, is in possession of a firearm, even if that frame or receiver has not been completed.

Yes, and that raises more questions than it answers.

Let's say that you've assembled an "80%" AR lower receiver (incomplete) into a nonfiring "dummy" gun. Does that dummy gun need to be marked and serialized before being sold?

What about the NFA implications?

Any AR lower can be made into a machine gun by slightly widening the inside and drilling one hole. Is this "readily converted"? Is every AR owner potentially in possession of a contraband machine gun?

 

[Craig_AR]

executive orders only apply to federal employees and people who are under federal contracts.

That is true, but in this case, as in a number of actions under both Obama and Trump, this is not an Executive Order (EO). It is what news sources are calling "executive action" and it involves an agency using their rule-making authority to issue regulatory rules that do affect the general public. The problems come in when the rules do not comply with the laws that direct and authorize the agencies to make such rules. Specifically in this case, as in the bumps stock ban under Trump administration, the BATFE is releasing rules that affect FFLs and gun owners that, in the estimation of t least some people, go beyond the legitimate rule-making authority of the ATF.
Going back to the distinction between an Executive Order and executive action, in some cases the President has issued an EO directing the agency to implement the public-facing rules. News reports on this latest White House announcement are not complete enough for me to tell if Biden actually released an EO telling ATF to do this.

 

[AlexanderA]

Technically, this is neither an "executive order" nor an "executive action." It's a Final Rule amending the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). As such, it has to comply with the requirements of the Administrative Procedures Act, including the publication of a Notice of Proposed Rule Making, a 120-day comment period, response to the comments, etc. That's why it took so long to be issued. Still pending is its official publication (as a final rule) in the Federal Register.

Also, Regulations (which is what this is) differ from ATF Rulings, which are official pronouncements on particular situations. They can be published or unpublished, depending on their importance and precedential value.

 

[Craig_AR]

Technically, this is neither an "executive order" nor an "executive action."

Alexander, as far as I knew the term "executive action" is a general term used in news reports to cover any action taken by or directed by the president, which may or may not include an EO. I have followed the rule making process you described for decades and never read the term until the Obama administration began using agency rules and letters from agency directors (e.g. Secretary of Education letter on Title IX processes) for major changes in government. Is there some official definition or use of the term "executive action" I missed?

 

[AlexanderA]

Is there some official definition or use of the term "executive action" I missed?

The following explains what executive actions are and how they compare to executive orders.

Executive Actions Versus Executive Orders
Executive actions are any informal proposals or moves by the president. The term executive action itself is vague and can be used to describe almost anything the president calls on Congress or his administration to do. But many executive actions carry no legal weight. Those that do actually set policy can be invalidated by the courts or undone by legislation passed by Congress.

The terms executive action and executive order are not interchangeable. Executive orders are legally binding and published in the Federal Register, though they also can be reversed by the courts and Congress.

A good way to think of executive actions is a wish list of policies the president would like to see enacted.

When Executive Actions Are Used Instead of Executive Orders
Presidents favor the use of nonbinding executive actions when the issue is controversial or sensitive. For example, Obama carefully weighed his use of executive actions on gun violence and decided against issuing legal mandates via executive orders, which would have gone against the legislative intent of Congress and risked enraging lawmakers of both parties.

Executive Actions Versus Executive Memoranda
Executive actions are also different from executive memoranda. Executive memoranda are similar to executive orders in that they carry legal weight allowing the president to direct government officials and agencies. But executive memoranda are typically not published in the Federal Register unless the president determines the rules have "general applicability and legal effect."
​

https://www.thoughtco.com/executive-actions-versus-executive-orders-3367594

In any case, these terms do not include Regulations (CFR), which are what we're talking about here.

 

[Craig_AR]

The following explains what executive actions are and how they compare to executive orders

AH, thank you. So the term is not official, and is described as fuzzy and open to broad interpretation, as I had thought.