Question about crimping .308 Win

[GW Staar]

Most seaters support the bullets once they enter, but entering them straight to start with is key ime. Not my seater's fault, more an expander or expander die problem. I totally disagree with the "indirect" answer. If you place a bullet by hand on a progressive, then you hold it until it gets past the mouth of the seater......and if you get in a hurry, you can pinch the hell out of your fingers. But of course perfect reloaders never do that. With a bullet feeder like Daa's rifle models, they depend on two things, the inside chamfer in the neck, and the stack of bullets behind the one dropped, to press the bullet well enough not to fall over while it moves to the seating station. jmorris's wonderful but no longer offered GSI drop and seat die excluded.

So then the rest of us are left with dropping and seating on separate stations. And if you use a bullet feeder, it's got to "stick" them well, or they'll tilt and maybe not make it nicely into the seater enough to be seated straight. Chamfers are angled, flares are angled, I've done it every way. I prefer the very direct "M" pocket.....not even a stack required.
I use Gold Medal Seaters........they support all the way in, and I didn't have to pinch fingers being bullets are dropped in. But then I got lazy.....built bullet feeders.....

 

[jmorris]

Most seaters support the bullets once they enter, but entering them straight to start with is key ime.

That’s the argument for window dies or sure. Forster and others sing the same principle are excellent as well.

 

[WVRJ]

It's got a lot to do with the application.For my bulk AR15 ammo,I load 60 grain Nosler BT's that have a cannelure.They get a moderate crimp from a Lee FCD.Bullets get seated with a regular old RCBS die.All of my bolt gun ammo is loaded without a crimp,and most of the time I seat with a window die or a Wilson die.I can't see any accuracy advantage coming from crimping a bullet in anything,especially if a bullet without a groove is crimped with a FCD.I don't even like to try to seat compressed loads with the Wilson dies because they tend to leave a visible groove in the bullet.The less you disturb a bullet in any way,the better it will be.I've read and heard of ammo that was crimped that was said to be more accurate,but I've never found that to be true.If I load match stuff for my AR,it's not crimped.The 223 is hard enough to load accurate ammo for due to the short neck,so I want to try to take care of what neck there is.Done properly,they will shoot good,and I've shot enough small groups to verify it.

 

[AJC1]

Well, even RCBS makes dimensionally different dies for the exact same caliber. Like the regular/undersize, example. Not only that, in every machining blueprint, there is a tolerance defined. If, in a perfect world we want 1.00000 , in the real world we wind up with 1.0000 +/- .0001. So we could have a “pass” product that is 1.0001” or one that passes at .9999”.

I would suspect many MFG’s products would fall into this overlap but one would have to test many samples.

As for “top & bottom” drawings. One is of the chamber, the other the cartridge, tolerances are generally arranged so the largest allowable cartridge will fit the absolute minimum chamber.

Like this example where the cartridge needs to be what is on the drawing or no more than .008 Smaller.

Where the chamber needs to be on the number or .002 Larger.
View attachment 1083177

Part of my discovery was linked to a rimmed cartridge... as rimmed and belted don't use the shoulder as headspace the deviations can be larger as saftey is not part of the equation.... I don't pretend to understand it all but I'm chasing the knowledge...

 

[jmorris]

Part of my discovery was linked to a rimmed cartridge... as rimmed and belted don't use the shoulder as headspace the deviations can be larger as saftey is not part of the equation....

I generally get my best accuracy out of them when they don’t use the rim or belt though.

I don’t have any great .22 Hornet loads that rely on the rim to headspace off of.

 

[AJC1]

I generally get my best accuracy out of them when they don’t use the rim or belt though.

I don’t have any great .22 Hornet loads that rely on the rim to headspace off of.

The 30-30 is my first rimmed rifle cartridge... I do plan on bumping cases like my 308 but give more Ike. 0025 or .003 vise .001 ish. Have no camming action at this point in the bolt so I'm holding a tight tolerance but giving the lever just a spot more room should be OK I believe.

 

[jmorris]

With the Hornet, in even a Contender rifle, I don’t even fully size the round, using FL dies just not lowered enough. Accuracy in the .3’s when I size just the portion of the mouth that holds the bullet, leaving the rest of the case “blow out” or fire-formed to the chamber.

That said, with a rimmed case, even ones sized much more that I ever do will be OK as far as function goes, even if it’s not the most accurate combination of variables.

 

[PonyKiller]

For better or worse I give every round a solid crimp with my lee fcd, so all the loads are consistent. One less variable to consider

 

[Walkalong]

That’s a variable in and of itself, pretty much no one who competes in accuracy games crimps.

 

[Nature Boy]

That’s a variable in and of itself, pretty much no one who competes in accuracy games crimps.

well said

 

[Muddydogs]

I use 150g Speer HC 308 in my 30-06, my best load. I started by not crimping, but learned better. I crimp now with the Lee FC Die, just a good snug crimp, and I'm convinced better.

Just resizing the neck as snug as I could get them before, and that's fine if you pamper ammo always. But a 10 mile ride once on a 4w, rough road bouncing, just your average 4w ride. Got to my shooting range. Several of my loads, the bullet was beat down onto the powder.

Crimping or not Crimping is the same, as long as it's done right, consistent! I often get 10-20 fps spread in my loads, near 1/2" groups. I'll always crimp now!
A Cannelure is not needed, find your best seating depth, and crimp consistently, if you prefer!

If a 10 mile ride is causing your bullets to move you have other issues besides crimping. I would suspect your neck tension is to loose or your bullets are not the right size. Is your seater die set to crimp when seating a bullet so your crimping way to much messing up neck tension or deforming the bullet? Basically by crimping these rounds your masking the underlying problem.
I've never had or heard about bullets moving from a rough road and I have traveled 1000's of miles of rough roads in a pickup or ATV. Never once had a bullet move in the case from a .204 up to a 375 H&H, main rifle is a 7mm RM.
You need to figure out your issue before you blow a rifle up.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Always crimp Russian bullets - they need discipline!
And ditto for British bullets - they enjoy abuse.

I've had to disassemble my own rifle loads before and have never experienced any crushed jackets or deformed bullets even when I used a crimp. Maybe I'm just not a ham-handed moron? Or maybe using a crimping die requires more thought than just, "Mongo like crimping!"

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

On why I feel as though I should crimp, it's what I was taught to do by the guy who showed me how to reload. I didn't know that it was unnecessary.

It's possible he taught you the way he did things because that's what teachers do. It works for him so it ought to work for you? This is why I tell people, "Don't do what I do. Just because it works for me don't mean it'll work for you."
Try both and compare.

Is crimping not required even on hunting ammo that can be carried all season, or even possibly a couple seasons, getting jostled around in a truck and bouncing around when slung on the back?

Well, I'll give you a clue: when you parachute into the hunting zone, don't forget to pull the cord and your landing will be much softer.

Seriously, no, if you keep good neck tension and aren't using a loaded length that puts the bullet into the lands, you're good with just closing the mouth of the case using a plain old seating die. Maybe - maybe! - use a collet crimp tool to close the neck and mouth if you have to bell the mouth for a lead bullet. Depends on your seating die.

I'll be loading for my bolt rifle primarily, however a friend has asked me to work up a load for his Remington Model 7400

This is a very bad idea unless you are licensed and bonded for making commercial ammunition. If he has a problem and gets hurt, or hurts someone else, it won't matter if it's your fault, his fault, or nobody's fault, you made the ammo so you're the one who's liable.

 

[AJC1]

This is a very bad idea unless you are licensed and bonded for making commercial ammunition. If he has a problem and gets hurt, or hurts someone else, it won't matter if it's your fault, his fault, or nobody's fault, you made the ammo so you're the one who's liable.

I agree with this completely. I work around my liability concerns by helping people reload their own... that means they are pulling the handle no exceptions.

 

[Soonerpesek]

If he has a problem and gets hurt, or hurts someone else, it won't matter if it's your fault, his fault, or nobody's fault, you made the ammo so you're the one who's liable.

While I would be/feel MORALLY liable, one would be hard pressed to prove I loaded the ammo....
That being said, I would want to physically be there when the ammo is fired ( if I loaded it ) and, as AJ stated, would strongly want to help said person reload their own ( they could use my equipment to start)...

 

[M65Man]

If a 10 mile ride is causing your bullets to move you have other issues besides crimping. I would suspect your neck tension is to loose or your bullets are not the right size. Is your seater die set to crimp when seating a bullet so your crimping way to much messing up neck tension or deforming the bullet? Basically by crimping these rounds your masking the underlying problem.
I've never had or heard about bullets moving from a rough road and I have traveled 1000's of miles of rough roads in a pickup or ATV. Never once had a bullet move in the case from a .204 up to a 375 H&H, main rifle is a 7mm RM.
You need to figure out your issue before you blow a rifle up.

Well you've heard it now, it happened to me. Old strip mine reclaims roads, weathered, turn into a washboard! But don't matter, I done been shooting crimped ammo all my life. If I shot benchrest competition, I probably wouldn't crimp, but I'm a hunter, and yes, I've heard of it happening to others! Here's just one group of my crimped reloads at 100yds. Shot plenty like it!
The pics of all the bullet damage, that's BS unless someone's crimping with a hammer and screw driver!
My hunting ammo, it'll always be crimped!
Ain't interested in paper scores!
The 4th shot was my fault.