Question about paper cartrige kits

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Pocket, Jan 15, 2022.

  1. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    A bit late to the party, but I have used both the Mesa Winds and Capandball.com formers. A write-up is here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mesa-winds-cartridge-former-review-and-comparison.889041/

    Regarding cigarette paper, some of it is treated with retardant and some is not. I don't know any way to find out which is which, so no longer use it.

    I personally have had good luck with curling papers. I prefer nitrated, but have found that while cartridges made with it apparently last quite well, the treated paper by itself becomes unusable - at least in my climate - after six to nine months. I will continue using it when I can, but will be making smaller batches in the future. Otherwise, untreated curling paper seems to work just fine.
     
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  2. Miguel Loco

    Miguel Loco Member

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    I agree..... so simple to do, I do it just like you....sanded a dowel down...took 5 minutes maybe. Curling iron papers are by far the best of all the above mentioned options. I like leaving a tail at the top too.....makes it so much easier to pull out of the box.
     
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  3. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I have the Guns of the West kit in 44, made 12 cartridges, and the only complaint I had was the funnel was a bit small. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to try them out. I didn't lube the balls, and was planning on using the supplied lube stick at the range before loading them, just because I am very new at this. They sure seem fragile to handle! If they work right, I will make more, and I would like to try the curling iron papers - dumb question, which brand of curling iron paper do you guys like the best for a clean burn? How do you check the chamber for unburnt paper, how to remove it at the range, or will it burn up if another one is loaded over it? I really like my Uberti 1960 and don't want to damage it,
     
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  4. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

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    You won't damage the gun by using paper cartridges, I find a ring of paper left behind after a shooting session from the glue that holds the bottom of the cartridge together. I remove them with a small pick or just leave them until I clean the gun after wards. A brush grabs them nicely and pulls them out for disposal.
     
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  5. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I use "TrueWave" simply because that is what comes up on Amazon! I've tried several different brands and they all seem to do about the same thing, so I doubt it is very important.

    I used to worry about left over paper in the chambers, but so far have not run into significant issues and cannot find anyone who has. Packing a live round onto a smoldering ember would likely not end well, but it just doesn't seem to be an issue.

    It does appear that the glued portions of the cartridge are the bits most often left behind, so it is a good idea to use minimal glue. It also may be worth checking out flammable glues like Duco. (I personally gave up on that route as it was just too much extra work for no benefit that I could see. I continue to use Elmer's glue sticks and just go as lightly as possible.)

    Finally, I dip-lube my cartridges in a historically correct mixture of tallow and beeswax. This works very well as a lube, avoids any mess during storage and handling, and requires no additional steps while loading. I try to keep a hundred or so on hand...

    full.jpg
     
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  6. hawg

    hawg Member

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    That is a real issue with rifles where you're likely to run another cartridge down the bore right after firing. With a revolver by the time you fire all six chambers and start to reload any embers have burned out.
     
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  7. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    Since there seems to be some misunderstanding about cigarette papers and so-called retardant, I will clarify.

    Legislation in the US mandates that cigarette papers be treated so as to inhibit combustion in an unattended cigarette. This is to discourage fires started by folks falling asleep while smoking.

    In cigarette papers, this is done through “banding” the paper, a chemical and construction process that essentially creates “speed bumps” to linear combustion at tobacco combustion speeds and temps.

    This has nothing to do with how black powder combusts. The speeds and temperatures involved are different. The combustion retardant properties of cigarette papers simply do not apply in their application as a paper cartridge for black powder.

    Use what you like to use, however, unnecessarily complicated. But stop claiming cigarette papers are somehow fire retardant in this application. Even if you assume there may be some burnt paper residue in some chambers after firing, unless you imagine that you are going into a gunfight with your cap and ball revolver and will have to speedily reload without blowing out or running a brush through each fired chamber, the time saved in not have to nitrate paper or create unnecessarily complicated cartridge designs far exceeds the time required to blow or brush out chambers before reloading.

    Use what you want to use. Make paper cartridge making as complicated as you want it to be. But cigarette papers work fine, are not fire retardant in this application, and leave minimal to no residue.
     
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  8. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I can find no federal law regarding fire retardation in cigarette papers, and am aware of several brands which claim to be free of any sort of additives.

    I also note that there are several different types of retardants used. It seems unlikely that you have thoroughly tested all of them for their effects in percussion revolvers.

    And while you are welcome to enjoy the hobby any way you like, I am not sure that "saving time" is the reason very many of us have gotten involved with cap and ball revolvers..
     
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  9. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    I will repeat myself. I have no objection whatsoever to anyone making the fabrication of paper cartridges as unnecessarily complicated and time consuming as they wish. One should feel free to grow trees and make their own paper for that matter. I do however object to false information being given about cigarette papers in that role. And I cleared that up.
     
  10. Eyrie G. Dogg

    Eyrie G. Dogg Member

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    Pouring powder is fun but I have also used paper carts for years. They are especially nice on wet and windy days. I use cig papers - Raw (hemp) and American Spirit (flax). Ignition is instant. Very reliable. Minimal residue in chambers even after an afternoon of shooting. Waxed wooden dowel/mandrel, a paper and Elmers white paste for the folded over base; easy as pie. I never nitrate, no need to do that.
     
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  11. webrx
    • Contributing Member

    webrx Contributing Member

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    I got bored on day and glued a couple pieces of 3/4 hardwood together and went to work with a drill, sandpaper and a dowel - here was the rough result. I always intended to smooth it out, but then saw something shiny I guess. it is setting on the bench waiting for smoothing and finishing, but it does make cartridges, I used hair styling paper on mine

    medium.jpg
     
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Member

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    Typically I would not even dignify such a condescending post.
    I think the comments were unnecessary at best.
     
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  13. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Well, no, you didn't. You posted some opinions as fact, provided nothing to back them up, and managed to insult a bunch of fellow shooters while doing it. You shouldn't be surprised at the pushback.
     
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  14. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    The only people who should be insulted are those making false claims about the fire retardant properties of cigarette papers. I know more about that topic than anyone here, as both an 18 year veteran of the tobacco industry and a former firefighter.

    And you, perhaps, who seems to be looking for a fight. Look elsewhere.
     
  15. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Not looking for a fight. Looking for A) some form of substantiation for opinions which would be interesting if true, but don't appear to be, and B ) some manners.
     
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  16. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    Looking for manners suggests you should show some. You have not.

    I have explained my expertise in the subject area. You have none. If you want information, there’s a tool available. It’s called Google.

    Fire Safe Cigarette legislation mandating retardant paper has been passed in all fifty states, Canada, the EU and a number of other jurisdictions, information that was readily available to you with a simple search.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_safe_cigarette

    Stop being rude. Stop picking fights.
     
  17. hawg

    hawg Member

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    While it is a fact cigarette manufacturers use a fire retardant in their papers I do not think it extends to rolling papers. I do think there are better/stronger options than rolling papers.
     
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  18. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    There may well be better, and there certainly are stronger, options to cigarette papers.

    The requirements of Fire Safe Cigarette legislation apply to cigarette papers and, as I explained, are irrelevant to their use in this application.
     
  19. gobsauce

    gobsauce Member

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    I can say that both Bugler and Raw brands of cigarette paper work fine.

    I've also used a brand called "King", I think, and it's about 2 times as long, so I can make 100 out of 50 pack of papers. But they don't burn as nice.

    EDIT: these brands are for their rolling papers
     
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  20. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Your link does not say what you claim it does. There still is no evidence for your claims and I do not believe you have any. Between that and your continued obnoxiousness, I have no more use for the discussion.
     
  21. Roverguy

    Roverguy Member

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    I have provided the facts. All cigarettes and cigarette papers are required by law, as cited in the Wikipedia link above, to use fire retardant measures. And that is utterly irrelevant to their application in use in black powder cartridges, which burn in an entirely different way (information on the fire retardant technology used in cigarette papers provided in the Wikipedia link corroborates my earlier explanation as a technical expert: the technology inhibits linear burn at minimal combustion temperatures), and burn at entirely different temperatures than factory or hand rolled cigarettes (the minimum combustion temperature for paper is 451F, which I know as a former firefighter and cite the eponymous title by Ray Bradbury to corroborate :D Black powder burns at temps far above that - look it up.)

    You inexplicably picked a fight over these facts though clearly you know nothing about the subject. Now you are behaving very badly about being proven wrong.

    You are also now ignored.
     
  22. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Probably because of the retardant. :rofl:
     
  23. gobsauce

    gobsauce Member

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    It's actually because they're thicker than the other two.

    Raw are the best I've used, they leave virtually no residue. Buglers are a little thicker, and this leave very small traces of residue.
     
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  24. Pocket

    Pocket Member

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    I had the time to make some with the Raw papers and nitrated coffee filters.

    The "Raw" paper ones seemed to be on the fragile side, just my opinion only.

    The treated coffee filters seem a little bit more durable yet just enough flex without busting open while loading the cylinder on the gun.

    I am really liking the formers, powder measures and funnel.
     
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Member

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    20220128_092858.jpg I used my kit thismorning to make up some 31s for my Rem Pocket pistol. I love it...


    Update: My little Rem Pocket pistol does not like paper cartridges. I think the coffee filters may be to robust for it. It gums up quickly.
    I am gonna try the cigarette papers to see what it does.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
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