Question about Powder Measures

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Captains1911

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I'm not sure, but maybe you're over thinking this. IMHO, a couple of grains either way won't make a difference, unless there's a reason I don't understand. Hopefully, someone else can answer your question better than I did.
 
paul harm said:
I'm not sure, but maybe you're over thinking this. IMHO, a couple of grains either way won't make a difference, unless there's a reason I don't understand. Hopefully, someone else can answer your question better than I did.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that Blackhorn 209 has a significantly different unit weight than black powder and Pyrodex, more than just a couple of grains by weight. So I want to make sure that these measures aren’t meant to provide accurate weight measures of Blackhorn 209.
 
The loading densities of all substitutes and grades of black powder are different. The same volume of any will yield different weights of powder.
Click to expand...
Typically, guns are rated for 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex. Blackhorn 209 is more energetic and will achieve or exceed the velocities of Pyrodex with less powder. See our load data page for maximum volumetric charges.
Click to expand...
http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/
 
From the Remington inline muzzle loader instructions.

PRYODEX powder or pellets are intended
to be used as a volume-to-volume replace-
ment for black powder. It will produce simi-
lar performance characteristics as the same
volume of the appropriate black powder. A vol-
umemetric powder measure set to 100 grains of
Black Powder can be filled with Pyrodex powder
instead to achieve similar results. Pyrodex is used
on a volume-to-volume replacement basis and
NOT a weight-to-weight basis

Triple Seven powder is NOT intended to
be used as a volume-to-volume replace-
ment for back powder or Pyrodex. To
obtain similar velocities and pressures as
black powder or Pyrodex powder, you must
decrease the volume of Triple Seven pow-
der by 15%. On a volumetric basis to rep-
licate the same pressure and velocity of a
100 grain of black powder or Pyrodex load,
you must calibrate your volumetric powder
measure to 85 grains for Triple Seven.
For the latest information for Pryodex or
Triple Seven powders visit the Hodgdon’s
web site at www.hodgdon.com.
Click to expand...
 
Captains1911 said:
Can I use Blackhorn 209 powder tubes to measure Pyrodex, or are these tubes calibrated to provide equivalent volume to weight measurents for Blackhorn 209 powder? In other words, if I want a 100gr load of Pyrodex, and I fill one of these tubes to the 100 mark, will I have a 100gr load of Pyrodex?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2649762570/blackhorn-209-muzzleloading-powder-tubes
Click to expand...

Yes. The product page clearly states that the vials serve as a volumetric measure. So they should be able to be used for measuring any black powder or substitute powder by volume without any problem.

"...These tubes hold up to 120 grains of powder in each tube and have a volumetric measurement on the side that will indicate how much powder you have in the tube. ..."
 
You may use the Blackhorn 209 powder tubes for black powder and it substitues, except Triple Seven powder, you must decrease the volume of Triple Seven powder by 15%.
 
I wouldn't assume the Blackhorn 209 tube throws the same volume as a standard Black Powder Measure. It very well may, but Blackhorn 209 is reputed to be more energetic that Real Black Powder so it may not.
The easy thing to do is use a volume measure, but it is a bit crude if you're trying to fine tune an optimum load.
The best thing to do for maximum consistency is the weight your charges on a reliable scale. (they are inexpensive these days)
The various powder measurers are not calibrated between each other and can have differences among them.
The coarseness of your powder, and the amount of settling that has occurred will make a difference in the actual load thrown with the same measure.
This is in general, normally not a huge deal for Black Powder as far as safety goes and as long as you are willing to sacrifice consistency (accuracy).
To safely measure your loads by actual weight, you need to understand what the maximum load a given powder is in your application.
When comparing different powders e.g., Triple 7, Real Black Powder, Pyrodex, Blackhorn 209, etc, they all will have a different wight to volume and a specific max load.
Real Black Powder is the benchmark in muzzleloading, so a 100 grain load weighs 100 grains (if the volume measure is correct)
Typically the substitutes have a conversion factor e.g., Blackhorn 209's is 70%. So if you measure 70 grains of Blackhorn 209 you have what they say will be an equivalent load to 100 grains of Real Black Power.
I don't use Pyrodex, and I'm not sure exactly what the conversion rate is to it.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
I wouldn't assume the Blackhorn 209 tube throws the same volume as a standard Black Powder Measure. It very well may, but Blackhorn 209 is reputed to be more energetic that Real Black Powder so it may not.
Click to expand...

The Blackhorn 209 website makes it crystal clear that a standard BP volumetric powder measure is used to measure loads of BH 209.

"10. Your charge recommendations are in Volumetric Units. What are these and is it the same as weight in grains?
Volumetric Units are NOT the same as weight in grains. Blackhorn is used by volume and therefore the charge is a measurement by volume.
A volume charge is measured with a standard black powder measure. It is not weighed and a setting of 100 does not mean that you have 100 grains by weight, not even black powder.
The loading densities of all substitutes and grades of black powder are different. The same volume of any will yield different weights of powder. "--->>> http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/

AND it's printed right on the front of the package in large letters that the vials are "volumetrically graduated".

https://www.als.com/Product.aspx?pf...MI3ujmzPaZ3gIVS7XACh2llwsDEAQYASABEgK3ZPD_BwE
 
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243winxb said:
You may use the Blackhorn 209 powder tubes for black powder and it substitues, except Triple Seven powder, you must decrease the volume of Triple Seven powder by 15%.
Click to expand...

Only to duplicate the power of a given charge by volume. You can use that matching volume to get more power in your shots.
 
arcticap said:
The Blackhorn 209 website makes it crystal clear that a standard BP volumetric powder measure is used to measure loads of BH 209....
...AND it's printed right on the front of the package in large letters that the vials are "volumetrically graduated"...
Click to expand...

Good detective work...
It does say that A volume charge is measured with a standard black powder measure, so that sure does sounds like the Blackhorn 209 tube is based on a "Standard" Black Powder measure.

I don't think the term "volumetrically graduated" is crystal clear as to the meaning though since it could be interpreted to mean graduated for Buckhorn 209, or Black Powder, or both. Obviously a measuring tube is measuring by volume, and the tube is graduated with measurements.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
I don't think the term "volumetrically graduated" is crystal clear as to the meaning though since it could be interpreted to mean graduated for Buckhorn 209, or Black Powder, or both. Obviously a measuring tube is measuring by volume, and the tube is graduated with measurements.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Volumetrically (is that even a real word?) graduated simply means it is providing a measurement of volume, which in this instance is based on an equivalent weight of a material with a specific unit weight. Since Blackhorn 209 has a lower unit weight than BP or Pyrodex, it requires a larger volume to achieve an equivalent charge weight. Therefore, if these tubes are specific to 209, then it would be unwise to use them for measuring BP or Pyrodex without applying a conversion factor, otherwise you would be using a greater charge than the the tube indicates. This is why I asked. I will measure some and weigh it out to see for sure. I'm a newbie when it comes to muzzle loading and just want to be sure I fully understand what I am doing.
 
Just so folks know..., according to the Blackhorn 209 site:
If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight.
So the measures are as stated, by volume, not by actual "weight" of grains. If you use a scale and weigh the Blackhorn 209 you use the conversion factor above. DON'T get confused please. The Blackhorn 209 site points out that while many inlines are rated to take 150 grains of powder, max, one should refer to Blackhorn 209 data as it's a bit more powerful than many BP substitutes. SO if you happen to criss/cross the conversion and weighed out 150 grains of Blackhorn 209 instead of using a volume measure and their chart..., you'd actually have 195 grains by volume, and probably a more powerful load than an equal one in another sub like Pyrodex, 'cause the Blackhorn 209 is "hotter". :confused: :thumbdown:

LD
 
And people who load a 150grs IMHO have their head where the sun don't shine. Keep it simple. Load something sane by volume and you won't have to worry about too much powder, just what gives you the best group. I started doing this around 1970 and have never weighed a charge. Everyone I knew would have said a 100gr charge was quite a bit. Now we have plastic wrapped around slugs, powder pellets, and inlines.:( I'm not making fun, or criticizing Captains question, just wondering what the world has come to. Please pass a flint, think I'm going to be sick. :cuss:
 
The grain by volume is a standard unit of measurement not subject to change whether printed on a black powder volume measure or a Blackhorn 209 vial. Grains as measured by volume is going to be the same regardless. I think it makes things nice and simple.

Grains by weight is going to depend on how much the substance weighs (density ???) so if you choose to use the undoubtably more accurate method of measuring by weight just be sure to know exactly what you are dealing with to avoid any nasty accidents.

As mentioned in previous posts all these different powders have significant weight differences.

Now for whatever reason 777 is not manufactured to have an equivalent volume measure (VOLUME) as black and requires a reduction of 15% VOLUME to equal black and that volume is again in grains so a powder measure that measures volume in grains will work your just going to use 15% less grains by volume.

I don't know the WEIGHT in grain equivalent of 777.

I find volume measurements to be good enough but if I were pushing for the best accuracy possible (better than good enough) I would probably choose to weigh.

But VOLUME is so much more convenient and I am not going to argue with good enough.
 
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Hodgdon’s site no longer has the info about Triple 7 needing to be reduced by 15%. What it used to say was not due to safety issues but to replicate BP velocities. However this isn’t even accurate as both Swiss and Olde Eynsford powders typically produce just a bit more velocity.
 
grter said:
The grain by volume is a standard unit of measurement not subject to change whether printed on a black powder volume measure or a Blackhorn 209 vial. Grains as measured by volume is going to be the same regardless...
Click to expand...

This is not as simple as implied.
A grain is a unit of measure of weight. e.g., 1 grain equals 0.0647989 grams.
Not all materials have the same mass, not even gun powders, black powders or BP substitutes.
Volume measurement of weights requires one to know what the mass is of the material being measured. Otherwise, the measurement has no hope of being accurate.

An old example that is somewhat to the extreme would be that any one can likely see that if you filled a 100 grain measuring tube with lead and compared it to a 100 grain tube filled with feathers that the lead would weigh significantly more than the feathers that filled the same volume tube.

There can not be a standard unit of measurement of grains by volume for all powders or other materials.

In general, BP substitutes attempt to relate their performance in relation to Real Black Powder since it is historically a relatively known value.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
This is not as simple as implied.
A grain is a unit of measure of weight. e.g., 1 grain equals 0.0647989 grams.
Not all materials have the same mass, not even gun powders, black powders or BP substitutes.
Volume measurement of weights requires one to know what the mass is of the material being measured. Otherwise, the measurement has no hope of being accurate.

An old example that is somewhat to the extreme would be that any one can likely see that if you filled a 100 grain measuring tube with lead and compared it to a 100 grain tube filled with feathers that the lead would weigh significantly more than the feathers that filled the same volume tube.

There can not be a standard unit of measurement of grains by volume for all powders or other materials.

In general, BP substitutes attempt to relate their performance in relation to Real Black Powder since it is historically a relatively known value.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that the volume measures are based on a volume of the grain weight of water which just happens to almost exactly equal the volume of a grain of black powder.

That's why the water capacity of empty brass cartridge cases can indicate their use as volumetric powder measures.

Not every case is manufactured to the same spec's. but they are all pretty close.
The weight and volume of water is much more standard than that of black powder.

Cartridge = Grains of powder by volume

.25acp = 5.3

.380 = 11.3

9mm = 13.3

.40 S&W = 19.3

.30 Carbine = 21

.38 Special = 23.4

.45 Auto = 26

.357 Mag = 27

.44 Spl = 34

.44 Rem Mag = 39

.45 Colt = 41.6

Listed in the right hand column are the case capacities for many rifle cartridge cases that are based on their water case capacity in grains of water.--->>> http://kwk.us/cases.html
 
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One more conversion factor...

The Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) has established a minimum load for competition in the black powder cowboy action shooting categories: 15 grains of Goex 2F per shot, and its volumetric equivalent is 1 CC of powder.

The “1 CC = 15 grains of powder” is a helpful guide to remember. Putting 1CC/15 grains of whatever BP or Substitute you want into a .38 Special case and seating a 125 to 158 grain bullet on top of it brings much fun and happiness at the range.

A $12 set of Lee dippers, or a set of graduated spouts for your powder dispenser should suffice for all but the most exacting long range competition. BP and the substitutes are so much more forgiving than smokeless powders.
 
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