Question for LEOs and retired LEOs

[Akira Le]

I'm curious--when illegally owned and/or carried firearms are recovered from criminals, in what condition are they usually found?

My question was formulated based on the myriad of threads I've seen about the reliability and familiarity requirements that members of this forum impose on their personal protection firearms. Those of us who will likely never use our EDCs in a defensive manor are typically obsessed (for lack of a better term) with the reliability of our guns, and we are constantly shooting, cleaning, lubricating, etc.

Meanwhile, it is my assumption that the civilians (i.e. drug dealers) who generally use their illegally obtained or possessed firearms in true life and death situations on a relatively frequent basis lack the work ethic and attention to detail required to provide proper maintenance and care to their firearms to ensure utmost reliability. My assumption is derived from my observation of how the aforementioned demographic maintains their dwellings, vehicles, city blocks, etc. Are my assumptions consistent with what you’ve seen, or am I completely out to lunch?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Most guns picked up from criminals are in pretty good shape, but we do get some winners sometimes.
Like this Para Ord.


Homade front sight on a Glock.



Some guns get shot sometimes.

 

[lemaymiami]

I recovered weapons in every state from pristine to horrible... Much depended on how long the animal had the weapon (a newly stolen sidearm will be in the exact condition the owner kept it in...). When I started police work (hired the last week of 1973, came out of our local academy in early spring 1974...) many weapons on the street could be described as cheap junk (even when brand new an RG22 or a Raven 25, or something similar, was as much a hazard to the shooter as it was to anyone downrange..). All of that changed as the party got going down here in paradise, south Florida... By the time of the cocaine cowboys things were popping in every sense of the word and the weapons we recovered might be anything from high end to the cheap junk that was always available on the street... and in any condition from very well maintained to falling apart...

On the day of my one and only shooting the guy on the receiving end was armed with a Colt .45 taken a week before from a police officer's house... but had tossed it away moments before he was killed (thank heavens for the good citizens that showed our investigators where he'd tossed the weapon - or my career would have had an early end..).

As we got past the cocaine cowboy era we were still dealing with police impersonators who were generally as well equipped as we were - including the body armor... Starting in the early eighties Miami became famous for the "Miami special deal" - a dope deal where no one brought dope and no one brought money - both sides were planning on doing a straight up rip - with bad outcomes all around... It actually got to the point that public officials were advising ordinary citizens how not to stop for someone showing a blue light in their vehicle (the advice was to call 911 and drive carefully to your nearest police station..). On more than one occasion we had to dispatch a uniform unit to assist one of our plainclothes officer when a citizen refused to believe that he (or she) was a "real" cop...

Sorry to de-rail this thread - but you kicked off some pretty vivid memories from years ago when it actually was a thrill a minute some days or nights... Glad I'm long out of that line of work...

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

If there are less than two types of ammunition in the magazine, you've got yourself a high roller. Bonus points if the magazine is loaded to capacity.

For some reasons, Hi-Points have a high percentage change to not have the rear sight. The little plastic doo-hickey that screws the sight to the slide often is broken off.

A decent likelihood of missing grip panels, or the grip wrapped in tape. I'm pretty sure the second one is from people that watched the Godfather.

Very very high chance of plumber crack sweat... since holsters are apparently against the rules. FYI: Plumber crack sweat will rust out the grip panel screws on a Hi-Point.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

Early in my career, a lot were cheap .22 or .25 revolvers and semiautos. They misfired a lot or jammed, which was good for us. In my later years, after legal CCW became more normal, i saw better guns like glocks, smiths and so forth that were in good shape. But most were stolen.

 

[bikerdoc]

Retired in 1990 after 20, early on we saw a lot of foreign stuff, around 79/80 we started to see a lot more stolen domestic ones.condition was at the least dirty, but abused and juryrigged were common.
My one two way range experience was against a stolen 32. No match for 158 gr 357.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

In the last two years high capacity magazines are in common use with handguns. And when they go out to do some shooting they empty the mags.
Academy Sports had their pistol ammunition out on the shelf. The thugs send kids into the store to steal ammo.
Most of our gang bangers are well armed and have good ammo.

 

[Stope Rat]

If the magazine is in backwards, it's a potential Darwin Award winner.

 

[mbok1947]

Back in the 70s when I was working at the cop shop we saw lots of cheap .25 autos and .22 and .32 revolvers, sometimes with broken or missing grips. I remember at one shooting watching an officer try to unload the remaining unfired rounds from an old revolver, and he had to pry them out with a key since they were soldered into the cylinder with accumulated mold. I bet that old gun had been lying on a closet shelf loaded since FDR was in office.

At another shooting the victim had been shot right between the eyes from about three feet away, but the underpowered bullet just burrowed under his scalp and exited without penetrating the skull. The ammunition had apparently gotten wet at some time in the past, causing more of a "pfffttt" than a "bang."

Semi-loaded weapons were also common; two or three rounds in a six-round cylinder, or maybe three in a clip.

Of course the truism then that crooks rarely carried handguns in holsters still seems to apply. I saw several robbers who managed to shoot off parts of their manhood jamming the pistol down into their trousers.

 

[Rock185]

Most of the weapons I saw, whether they were good quality or junk to begin with, showed no evidence of any more maintenance than they put into their residences, vehicles, or personal Hygiene. Saw a lot of "custom" modifications similar to those shown in the photos.

I wish there'd been more junk. Years ago, when AKs, SKSs, and the Ruger P85 and P89 type pistols were cheap, we started seeing a lot of those. Unlike some other poorly maintained junk, those darn things just worked. No maintenance required.......

 

[Captcurt]

Not a LEO but have been to a few police auctions when they were selling confiscated guns. Most of them, I would guess 75%, were junk. To make matters worst they were sold in lots so you had to buy 10-15 junkers to get 3 or 4 decent ones

 

[Jesse H]

Most of the ones I've gotten were junk, not oiled and filled with lint. Did get a Canik 9mm recently that surprised me. The occasional Glock, M&P, or XD but plenty of Lorcins and Hipoints. Most aren't chambered with an assortment of ball ammo that's rarely a full magazine of the same brand.

These are traffic contacts and SWAT ops.

 

[jmace57]

I have bought about a dozen firearms from an auction house that sells confiscated/crime weapons. Many I have seen have obviously been thrown out of a moving car, with gouges and scrapes and ruined grips. They have ranged from poor to excellent condition, but EVERY one of them has been filthy.

 

[MedWheeler]

I only did a few years, ending in 1991. Saw a handful of RGs and at least one Raven. The Raven looked brand new, and was carried (unlawfully) by a guy who was otherwise closer to being on the up-and-up than a real criminal; he just didn't have a carry permit (Florida's statewide permit was only a few months old then.)

My own Taurus M66 was in like-new condition when it was stolen from my truck in a burglary in 1989. When it was recovered almost three years later, it had a few rust spots on it, some nicks in the wooden stocks, and seemed a little looser in lockup than I remembered. A neighboring agency had had a drive-by shooting that turned into a car chase when officers spotted the occupied-x-4 vehicle. When the vehicle crashed, it turned into a four-way foot chase, with all four throwing down guns. Mine was one of them.

 

[Rock185]

Jesse H, You mentioned something I'd hadn't thought about for a while, but you're right. It was not at all unusual for magazines to contain ammo of different types, by different manufacturers, none of it appearing fresh......

 

[M118LR]

Back in the day that successful criminals carried wheel-guns, they where meticulously maintained and of top quality. Poorly maintained low quality firearms seemed to be abundant and most commonly used by unsuccessful thugs.

 

[GooseGestapo]

WOW, interesting question.
I've seized/confiscated Browning BAR (sporting rifle Grade V) from a night-Hunter that had only been bore sighted, to Rhom .22short-only from bottom of tackle boxes.

I've also gone to department annual qualifications and seen officers firearms fail to fire/function due to rusted actions and badly corroded ammunition.

I'd venture that someone on this forum would be somewhat better than the average. Far better, actually.

 

[herrwalther]

Being in the position I am, working for the local Sheriff office (not as a deputy, yet) I do log the occasional firearm. The important stuff: make, model, caliber, condition, stolen yes/no, and serial number. I would say about 75% of the firearms I have catalogued were cheap Hi Point/Cobra/Jennings/Lorcins/Star 380 or 9mms in fair or worse condition. We cannot test fire the weapons at all but they can be dry fired. Some of the weapons recovered don't even dry fire they are so broken. The 75% cheap firearms are almost an even split of whether they were stolen or legally bought by someone at FFL. How they ended up in criminal ends depends on the investigation such as straw purchase, private sale etc etc. The 25% are nicer firearms as far as brand goes. They are Glocks, Smiths, older Ruger P series. Occasional XD, Walthers, newer Rugers. Haven't seen any revolvers so far. However even the nicer firearms are not well maintained unless they were acquired new. Always dirty and dry. But that could be they sit in storage for awhile before they get logged. Because if I am doing it, they are very backed up. By the time they hit the evidence locker, any ammo in the firearm is already in a sealed manila envelope.

The one nice surprise I got was a brand new, in box, Ruger 1911 was recovered. Still in the bag, chamber flag whole deal. Freshly stolen. Fortunately that firearm was returned to the store after the investigation was over, so they were able to sell that firearm twice.

Most recent firearm I logged was just the other day. Gun found in a traffic stop. Serial was run and found to be stolen from a neighbor county. So instead of a speeding ticket he got a Theft of Property 2nd degree, felony charge for a stolen firearm. That particular firearm was a Cobra 380 with no sights and one grip panel was missing.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Here are some resent Evidence guns that I’ve dealt with

 

[Mauser lover]

I must be missing something... what's with that disassembled Walther Gunny?

 

[ChanceMcCall]

Back in the day that successful criminals carried wheel-guns, they where meticulously maintained and of top quality. Poorly maintained low quality firearms seemed to be abundant and most commonly used by unsuccessful thugs.

Thanks for your response. I agree.

Asking this question is like asking blindfolded people to describe an elephant by touching a part of the body. Locals are less likely to encounter the same types of people and consequently, the same type and condition of guns as federal agents or elite state squads. When I was on the job many years ago, the locals were surprised if they encountered a semi auto above a .380 and most guns were junk - with the exception of pimps who often had guns better, and often better maintained, than those the officers carried.

At the federal level it was much more common to encounter much better guns that were well maintained. Revolvers were Ruger Speed Six at the low end and S&W and Colt revolvers were common especially short barreled Pythons for the more successful. Semi autos were Colt 1911s and Browning Hi Powers with a few Walthers and a few others thrown in. It is pertinent that these people made lots of money until caught and many were not lazy, just criminals who liked the rush of what they were doing for a living.

One of the reasons for revolvers for some of them was there were no cartridge casings left behind for firing pin or ejector markings. I knew several criminals that had the ambition, the knowledge, and the tools to change barrels on revolvers they used. Changing barrels on semi autos was even more common. I also suspect, but do not know for a fact that all of the younger criminals are less mechanically competent and less inclined to clean and care for guns these days than their counterparts of earlier days.

Just another view.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Not a LEO, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...

Seriously though, a couple years ago I worked at a juvenile detention center to pay my way through my undergrad. I would say about half of our couple hundred kids were pretty hardened gang-bangers with a dozen or more actually pulling triggers on people.

As a gun guy, even in college, I would always laugh to myself listening to the majority of the kids (approx 12-18 y/o) talk about their firearms. The slang they used was awful and corny... "deuce-deuce" for .22 and phrasing like "I got that tree-eighty" for .380 ACP. In their minds, .22 and .380 were the go-to premium calibers. And this is coming from kids in gangs on both coasts, but mostly East Coast cities (Philly, Jersey, Baltimore). Rarely did any of them know the brand of their guns. If they did, I can only remember a couple kids saying Taurus and Glock. But I also think "Glock" meant any black handgun. From what I could tell, none of these kids bought or stole these guns themselves or personally had someone buy them these guns. Someone in their circle/crew/gang gave it to them and they got passed around. So who knows how many degrees-of-separation there were from the original straw-purchase or theft.

So what I gather from my 3 years working as a babysitter to the delinquent youth, is that these gang and criminal oriented kids were more worried about drugs, girls, money, parties than firearms and firearm maintenance. These were not "gun-guys" and nor were they trained. But that doesn't mean they weren't dangerous.

What I can also gather is that these guns were not possessions like you and I consider them. Many of these kids passed guns around like they passed their drugs around and like they passed their girls around. This means that no one takes responsibility for the care of a firearms and it's in the hands of a collective group, not an individual.

Now, these are generalizations from my experiences. I'm sure more seasoned criminals (it's hard to be an "old head" in the criminal world as many of these guys don't see the age of 25) may have a different outlook and I'm sure that rural meth dealers have a different way of going about things.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I must be missing something... what's with that disassembled Walther Gunny?

It’s the same one that’s assembled, just to show that it was pretty clean.
We had just over 100 homicides last year, and at the rate we are at this year we’ll have more this year.
We are starting to see more ARs . This is most likely due to the price coming down.
Thugs have gotten smarter when it comes to guns in the last few years. This can also be contributed to ex-military getting into the drug business.

 

[shafter]

I've seen firearms in all sorts of condition. Some are terrible, others aren't bad but obviously not well cared for. Sometimes they look great. That goes for ordinary citizens too. I've seen concealed carry weapons that were beyond filthy.

 

[Shimitup]

Trigger guard on my Walther has to be flexed/held to the side to keep it down.