Question from a complete newb

[Bixster_inc]

The local LEOs share the range where I shoot. If you go there after they have been shooting, you can pick up hundreds of once fired Lake City cases. I have collected thousands of them. Lake City and Federal have more case capacity than other brands I have measured. I use only LC. Yeah, it's a pain decrimping it, but it is good quality brass. I do not mix headstamps.

How do you feel about their .308 brass? I’ve got a grocery bag full of it that I’d love to make into match grade quality food for my AR-10 but I’m not 100% sure on powder charges for milsurp brass.

 

[FROGO207]

There are those that say capacity is more, there are some that say less. Just sort by headstamp and year they will be close enough for starters. Start 10% below max and load up in steps. Stop if things become hard to eject or primers flatten and back off some. I usually find two accuracy nodes when working up a load and the lower one is often the most forgiving when reloading accurate ammo. Weighing empty once fired brass is a good indicator of brass volume as the outside dimensions are the same and the internal volume will be less if it weighs more as a result. For 100 YD shooting similar volume will work just fine no matter the headstamp. 1000YDS that is more time consuming to get things exact for better accuracy.
Do not forget to remove the primer crimp from the MIL brass after weighing it. Do not overthink things in the beginning and keep good records ask me how I know this. Oh yeah welcome to the world of reloading.

 

[mdi]

An aside; I had an epiphany a few years ago after chasing my tail for weeks trying to find out why my Garand handloads wouldn't fit a gauge. An old reloader asked me if the rounds chambered in my rifle? Yep they did and shot fine. That's when I realized I would be shooting my ammo out of my gun's barrel, not a gauge...

 

[Bixster_inc]

There are those that say capacity is more, there are some that say less. Just sort by headstamp and year they will be close enough for starters. Start 10% below max and load up in steps. Stop if things become hard to eject or primers flatten and back off some. I usually find two accuracy nodes when working up a load and the lower one is often the most forgiving when reloading accurate ammo. Weighing empty once fired brass is a good indicator of brass volume as the outside dimensions are the same and the internal volume will be less if it weighs more as a result. For 100 YD shooting similar volume will work just fine no matter the headstamp. 1000YDS that is more time consuming to get things exact for better accuracy.
Do not forget to remove the primer crimp from the MIL brass after weighing it. Do not overthink things in the beginning and keep good records ask me how I know this. Oh yeah welcome to the world of reloading.

I’ve been thinking about getting into reloading since the great ammo famine of 2012/2013. Especially since and this leads to arguments every time I say it but off the shelf stuff is not as good as it was when I got back into shooting in 2010.

I’ve found every excuse not to do it. Initial cost, too technical, lack of free time, lack of space, need and since I’ll be trading states next year so I figured it’d be more stuff to move. For the last year I’ve been stockpiling everytime I see ammo on sale as here in Californistan we can no longer buy ammo online without having it shipped to an FFL for pickup and by the time the shop you send it to charges to “handle” your shipment it negates the savings you were trying to get. Next year the rules change again and rumor has it I’ll have to get a license to buy ammo and the seller will have to report large quantity purchases to local authorities. Reloading circumnavigates all this mess.

My stance did a 180 when I heard a radio ad that a local gun shop is closing and the owner is liquidating his inventory before he retires. I stopped by to see what was left and with his blowout prices I was able to pick up a good portion of the equipment needed at below what I saw on midway which is where I’d planned to order from when I was ready.

A week in and I’m already wishing I’d started this years ago. Reloading seems to be a subject that if in a forum like this or standing next to a complete stranger in the components aisle of your local outdooor superstore people will fall all over themselves to help you and offer advice.

This is my long winded gracious response to your warm welcome.

 

[Bixster_inc]

An aside; I had an epiphany a few years ago after chasing my tail for weeks trying to find out why my Garand handloads wouldn't fit a gauge. An old reloader asked me if the rounds chambered in my rifle? Yep they did and shot fine. That's when I realized I would be shooting my ammo out of my gun's barrel, not a gauge...

So simple it’s brilliant. I took some of my prepped brass (cleaned, resized, swaged and reprimed) and loaded them into my rifle and they chambered and ejected very well. I’m guessing as long as I keep to the recommended OAL of 2.2” I’ll be more than fine.

 

[denton]

How do you feel about their .308 brass? I’ve got a grocery bag full of it that I’d love to make into match grade quality food for my AR-10 but I’m not 100% sure on powder charges for milsurp brass.

Unfortunately, the local LEOs don't shoot 308. Dang!

The milsurp 308 I have measured has thicker brass and less capacity than commercial stuff, just the opposite of Lake City 5.56x45. Military 30-06 also has less capacity than commercial. LC has to meet a military muzzle velocity spec for 5.56x45, and they need the extra capacity to do that comfortably.

If you have a chronograph, drop down a couple of grains and check your muzzle velocity when you carefully follow a book load. If your MV is right, your pressure will almost always be right as well. The exception is when you add powder and don't get a corresponding advance in speed.

 

[FROGO207]

OP For the first go round load the 223 ammo WITHOUT a crimp. Neck tension should hold the bullet in tight. I find all my ammo shoots better with no crimp than with it. Also one less thing to make happen when loading the ammo so one less problem area. Once you are comfortable doing this THEN is the time to try length sizing them all the same and trying a crimp to check for better accuracy. I bet you soon stop though. As long as you can't push the bullet in the casing with your fingers, (hold the brass in your fingers and push the bullet into the reloading bench with as much force as you can) if the bullet stays put then the neck tension is good and the bullet will stay in place.

Also be aware generally the more you pay for a bullet the better balanced it will be and therefore more accurate. The 55 grain FMJ MIL pulls seem to be the least accurate of all of them in my experience.

 

[Bixster_inc]

Well I got my first 100 rounds of .223 done with only one hiccup so far. A primer didn't quite settle in enough and I didn't notice it until I'd loaded it. I pulled the bullet, emptied the powder and for educational purposes I chambered it in a rifle and as expected it fired upon battery so I'm glad I caught it. I also noticed that using the hand priming tool that came with my rock chucker it would attempt to jam a primer in sideways 3-5 times out of 50, not sure why this is happening but I'd like to solve the issue for overall cost (yes I know they're only about .04/ea but still) and time because it requires disassembly of the tool to get the casing out. Right now it's taking me about 1 min to swage, clean primer pocket, chamfer in/out and reprime per round including disassembly/reassembly of hand priming tool. Haven't had a case yet that needed to be trimmed. To save my thumbs/time my next purchase will be a case prep station.

Anyways my recipe is as follows:
Brass: mixed commercial
Primer: CCI #400
Bullet: Hornady V-Max 55gr (not the most economical for starting out but I figure this batch will be my coyote and small pest eradicators on my friends ranch...if they work)
Powder: Varget - 24gr (3.5gr below max recommended for starts)
O.A.L - 2.20"

I haven't attempted to chamber a completed round because the primer depth uncertainty has me a little worried so I'm going to wait until I'm out in the field with the muzzle in a safe direction.

Because I want to take a little break from the small, eye straining task of .223 I grabbed a handful of my lake city milsurp stuff and checked headspace measurements using the comparator and got readings of 1.624 to 1.628 +/- .001. The only thing I can think for the discrepancies is the brass is from either my Ruger Precision Rifle, my CMMG LR308 or my friends M1A. Because the Ruger is in the process of being rechambered into a 6.5CM and obviously the M1A isn't mine I'm thinking I need to pop off about 10 rounds out of the CMMG since for the foreseeable future it'll be the only 308 I'm reloading for and pull measurements off of those casings. Also someone recommended weighing the brass as well. Commercial brass with an FC/.308 Win stamp weighed low to mid 180's (grain) like the LC stamped milsurp and some American Eagle brass with an M1A/7.62 stamp. Other brass in the commercial stuff is Winchester weighing in around 165gr. My initial thought is to combine the FC commercial stuff with the LC and American Eagle brass and separate out the Winchester stuff in case I pull the trigger on a sweet heavy barreled Rem 700 I've had my eye on especially since I've got about 400 live rounds of the Winchester in my ammo locker.

Also is annealing necessary? The ones I saw online were around $500 and that seems a little steep if the only benefits are squeezing 2-3 more reloads out of brass from what I've read elsewhere.

Any thoughts on my ramblings? As always any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Blue68f100]

There are many threads on annealing. The thing to remember when it comes to precision shooting is to keep every thing as equal as you can. Some only use new brass for matches, others once fired. Then there are groups that anneal every cycle. The reason is it keeps the neck tension the same throughout the life of the brass. Then there are those who only anneal every 2-3 firings. If your fire forming brass or forming brass annealing is important to make the process easier, and not damage the brass. I anneal every cycle part of my brass prep. Another benefit is that you will probably get loose primer pockets before you split a neck. If your dealing with custom built guns with tight spec it may or may not be a benefit, if your neck sizing only. Or have a custom sizing die made for your gun. Since your only doing a 0.001" from fired to sized, not much work going on.

It's something you can add at any time. May be beneficial to find some one local doing it to see if it works for you. One of the things I noticed early on is most are over heating the brass when using TempLac to confirm inside neck temp. And you do not need to go to full dead anneal. It helps to have a little hardness in the brass. You will also want to do it before sizing and after cleaning. With soft necks they can get dinged easily.

I'm sure some who compete will chime in. I shoot just for fun, no competition except against my neighbors.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Congrats on finally taking the leap.

Some of enjoy reloading more than shooting. Just don’t tell everyone!

The only advice I can give you is to get the basics down. Start by making safe reliable ammo. Keep notes and get into good habits.

After that, then figure out what’s important to you. Some load for volume, others precision, some for max velocity, some soft loads for practice and/or competition. You may find one or several. Just keep the loads labeled and enjoy!

 

[Bixster_inc]

There are many threads on annealing. The thing to remember when it comes to precision shooting is to keep every thing as equal as you can. Some only use new brass for matches, others once fired. Then there are groups that anneal every cycle. The reason is it keeps the neck tension the same throughout the life of the brass. Then there are those who only anneal every 2-3 firings. If your fire forming brass or forming brass annealing is important to make the process easier, and not damage the brass. I anneal every cycle part of my brass prep. Another benefit is that you will probably get loose primer pockets before you split a neck. If your dealing with custom built guns with tight spec it may or may not be a benefit, if your neck sizing only. Or have a custom sizing die made for your gun. Since your only doing a 0.001" from fired to sized, not much work going on.

It's something you can add at any time. May be beneficial to find some one local doing it to see if it works for you. One of the things I noticed early on is most are over heating the brass when using TempLac to confirm inside neck temp. And you do not need to go to full dead anneal. It helps to have a little hardness in the brass. You will also want to do it before sizing and after cleaning. With soft necks they can get dinged easily.

I'm sure some who compete will chime in. I shoot just for fun, no competition except against my neighbors.

I have a friend that competitively shoots and anneals so I’ll follow your advice and have him give me a ring next time he’s cooking.

 

[Bixster_inc]

So I went over to a friends house and burned off 10 rounds out of the LR308 to get some numbers. To save typing all rounds DO NOT pass the head space gauge test like my .223’s did.

#1 LC ‘13 1.629”
#2 LC ‘13 1.627”
#3 LC ‘13 1.627”
#4 LC ‘13 1.6275”
#5 LC ‘13 1.628”
#6 LC ‘14 1.629”
#7 LC ‘14 1.634” - further exam found a partially pushed out primer, junked.
#8 LC ‘13 1.6825”
#9 LC ‘13 1.630”
#10 LC ‘12 1.6825”

Following the .002-.004 bump down I selected 1.625” as my goal. After resizing all rounds chambered/ejected cleanly from the rifle but I noticed a .002 difference in the ‘13 & ‘14 brass with the ‘13 being thicker. Is this a concern? I’m thinking with this rifle, since I’d like to get more out of it I might want to shelve my used brass and opt for all new.

Thoughts?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not sure why you are sending brass through the case gauge before you size it. What do you care until its sized? Size the brass, trim if necessary, load and fire. It's really that easy. You seem to be way over thinking this whole process.

Why are you checking fired brass in a case gauge?

 

[Bixster_inc]

I'm not sure why you are sending brass through the case gauge before you size it. What do you care until its sized? Size the brass, trim if necessary, load and fire. It's really that easy. You seem to be way over thinking this whole process.

Why are you checking fired brass in a case gauge?

Probably because it makes me feel like I’m being thorough even if it is a useless step. Also when I was resizing my .223 the brass passed the HSG test before and after I resized so I questioned if I was really doing anything.

I’d agree on the overthinking. I’d much rather do it the way the guys on YouTube do it. Put fired brass into the press, screw in sizing die, push brass into die, screw die down until it makes contact, back out brass and give the die another 1/4 turn in and lock it down. Doing this I never seem to fall into the the .002~.004 bumpdown and I end up “walking it” into where it’s been beaten into my head it needs to be.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The guy in YouTube is wrong.

Use your case gauge to adjust your full length sizing die, not guessing with a 1/4 turn.

Stop worrying yourself checking brass before you size it. As for thinking sizing is doing nothing, primarily resizing will restore proper neck tension even if the shoulder doesn't need to be bumped back.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

The guy in YouTube is wrong.

Use your case gauge to adjust your full length sizing die, not guessing with a 1/4 turn.

Stop worrying yourself checking brass before you size it. As for thinking sizing is doing nothing, primarily resizing will restore proper neck tension even if the shoulder doesn't need to be bumped back.

I agree
I’ve watched a bunch of reloading videos.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but some of the things I’ve seen make me cringe. I suspect they do stuff to add time to videos and to make themselves appear to be experts.

One is so bad, I almost want to post his name, but I won’t as I suspect it would start a bad tangent. I will say though that when someone is testing their loads, then adjust their scope in the middle of a group, then doesn’t throw out the test, I have to question their processes and attention to detail.

Again, I recommend learning the basics and getting into good habits. Personally I like the Lee and Lyman books as first sources. Many of the others are good too. After that, THR is good as most people here seem to care and will offer ways that work well.

As far as YouTube, I personally use reloading videos more for entertainment than for information. I also double and triple check anything I see if I’m considering incorporating it.

 

[Walkalong]

The guy in YouTube is wrong.

Use your case gauge to adjust your full length sizing die, not guessing with a 1/4 turn.

Yep.

 

[mstreddy]

OP, I'll add, that the Tula ammo brass (real brass, not the steel or brass coated steel) is good brass. I'd suggest you keep it and not toss it. IIRC they have crimped primer pockets also. Wolf also has a line of brass cased ammo and it's pretty good as well.
Check for steel cases using magnets.
Also when dealing with unknown headstamps, check for the primer flash hole. There are some, thankfully not many, berdan primed 223 and 308s out there.

 

[Toprudder]

OP, I'll add, that the Tula ammo brass (real brass, not the steel or brass coated steel) is good brass. I'd suggest you keep it and not toss it. IIRC they have crimped primer pockets also. Wolf also has a line of brass cased ammo and it's pretty good as well.
Check for steel cases using magnets.
Also when dealing with unknown headstamps, check for the primer flash hole. There are some, thankfully not many, berdan primed 223 and 308s out there.

... and there are some, like Perfecta, that are notorious for having off-center flash holes.

I agree about the Tula *brass* cases, I see nothing wrong with them.

 

[Bixster_inc]

Hey guys, just wanted to take a minute to thank everyone that helped. I think I was trying to do too much and learn too much too fast and I got a little frazzled and my work area was looking like a cluster shag with casings and shreds of paper with cryptic numbers written all over them scattered everywhere.

I took a few days off from the press and the mess to get right mentally but now I’m ready to dive back in this weekend. So again thanks for the help and I apologize if anyone had the feeling they were talking to a stump over the last week.

 

[Demi-human]

You are not alone.
Though, it may not get better...

 

[Bixster_inc]

You are not alone.
Though, it may not get better...

Well I’m pretty sure I whooped the headspace consistency issue I was having after FL resize. My pro reloader friend set me straight that there will always be a few that come out +/- .001, stop fretting if it passes the case gauge test and move on.

The RCBS hand priming tool that came with my kit is crap, and I’m open to suggestions for an upgrade. I thought it was bad jamming up with small rifle primers every 10 or so a few nights ago until I did large rifle primers today and only on out of 10 went smoothly. It took an hour and a half to seat 100 primers. If this is normal please let me know so I can throw all my equipment on craigslist....kidding.

When setting my dies, I’ve learned not to torque the snot out of them with the lock ring wrenched up against the press so tight it takes a wrench to break it loose when changing because this throws the setting off. And simple hand tightening and confirmation it’s still snug every 10 sizings or so, increase frequency after pesky brass that takes a little more muscle to resize.

Of course I won’t know how good I’m getting until I actually start burning off some of these rounds but my confidence is climbing.

Once the precision rifle is completed I’m sure measuring the lands etc will have me breathing into a paper bag again and I’ll of course come crying back to you guys.

 

[Demi-human]

Once the precision rifle is completed...

That won't be the only one...

Ask me how I know... Twenty seven. Though I don't do Nine millimeter (Yet.) or Rimfire.

 

[Bixster_inc]

That won't be the only one...

Ask me how I know... Twenty seven. Though I don't do Nine millimeter (Yet.) or Rimfire.

I have 9mm, 40 s&w and .45 acp handguns right now and to me I couldn’t reload any of them because I can buy bulk boxes for relatively inexpensive vs the cost of a progressive loading set up.

I’ve actually kind of come to the same conclusion on .223. Too time consuming to make rounds I’ll peel off a couple hundred of on a Saturday afternoon. I’ll reload for my one match grade AR I shoot from a bench and buy Norma or similar bulk when it goes on sale for the rest of the fleet. Obviously if we have another ammo shortage like 12/13 my opinion will change.

308 is different, making $1.50+ rounds for < $.50 pays for itself quickly.

I’m sure I’ll have dies for the following at some point.

.30-30

300 Blackout - only because once I immigrate to America from California I’ll be applying for a suppressed SBR so I’ll want subsonic loads

303 British - I’m on the fence here, the rifle is more of a show piece that I rarely shoot. It’s got a lot of cool markings/stamps and already survived WW2 so it’d be a shame to destroy it with a bad load.

.45-70 - If the Marlin 1895 SBL ever comes back in stock.

.50 Beowulf

.224 Valkyrie

44 Mag - Only because there’s a golden Henry with a big loop and octogon barrel on consignment at my local gun store that really wants to go home with me.

 

[Bixster_inc]

Well fellas I finally grew a pair and tested out my first batch of .308’s. I’d really rather I had someone with me as the spot I go to is in BFE and preferably for this individual to have some sort of emergency medical training in case of a catastrophic miscalculation on my part.

I’ve been including my 100 round box homemade goodness the last 3 times I’ve been out there along with several boxes of the super bulk deal I got on some Winchester 180 gr soft points I’ve been burning up. After about 40 rounds of the store bought trying to connect with my full size steel silhouette with my AR10 at roughly 440 yards out hitting about 70% of the time I said screw it and decided to give my creations a day in court.

I drove back to my target, which looked like I’d been tagging it with 12ga 00 from 50 yards out and laid down a fresh coat of white with a crude bright orange circle roughly 6” in diameter in the middle of the chest. Back at my spot I loaded up. Not going to lie I was sweating/shaking a little for the first pull but once it was gone and I still had all fingers and my face was still there I settled down.

First shot pinged the bottom left of the target (assuming the nervous shakes I made no adjustments) and second came in low middle. The rest of the mag was spent walking the shots upwards into the orange. Once on point I’ll be damned if the next 30 rounds didn’t leave about a 3.5” inch area of bare metal inside my rudimentary target.

At that point I was starting to lose day light and I questioned if my hand loads were really THAT much better or was it me focusing, breathing and controlling the trigger more efficiently. I repainted the target and using the same technique as I did with the handloads I put another 40 rounds of the Winchester softies down range and it again looked like I was using the scatter gun.

Next weekend I’ll set up at 100 yards and actually do some 5 shot group testing but I am feeling A LOT better about my hand loading venture and a lot of thanks needs to go out to all of you that took the time to guide me.

So...thank you all.