Question in reference to the President's One Hundred competition.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Tinker-S, Aug 16, 2022.

  1. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Hello all,
    I am a firearms enthusiast, and I am tinkering with the idea to register for the 2023 Camp Perry competition.
    I have a question for the members with experience participating at the President's One Hundred competition. How does a competitor zeroes the scope on a service rifle to be used for the competition with two different bullet weight? How do you adjust yours for competition?
    I plan to use 77Gr SMK for the 200 and 300 yards, and 90Gr SMK for the 600 yards, but I do not know if it makes sense to zero the rifle at 400 yards, since it is a range in between 200 and 600 yards, record the adjustments and go from there.
    My thoughts are to setup a target at 400 yards at my local range and to make adjustments for both bullets. I reload both bullets using Ramshot TAC fired out of a 1:6.5 twist barrel, and the 90Gr groups very nice at 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. TAC is probably not what most people would use, but most other stuff is not available.
    The optic will be an Athlon 1-4.5x30 installed on a MI 20 MOA quick detach mount.
    All recommendations are appreciated, but keep in mind, I do not have the money to entertain a new scope or any other piece of equipment that it is nice to have, but not a must have. I am going to train and compete with what I have now.
    Any and all input is appreciated.
     
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  2. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    If you have a range that has 200 and 300 yard targets, why not get good zeros there and then figure out something for 600 if you can't shoot at that distance. As a start, I've had decent luck doing trajectory calcs on JBM ( http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml ) that use the distance to be shot as the zero range and then picking the trajectory in MOA (or Mils) at the distance that you can shoot. You'll need some reliable velocity data to do that. For example, my 80 SMK load is projected to be 3.5 Mils high at 300 yds. if zeroed at 600 yds. I had solid 300 yd. data with 75 HPBTs , so in theory I'd need to come up about 35 clicks from my 300 yd. setting.

    I used that method in the P100 last year and it took me a couple of shots at 600 to find the middle. I think that I made the Presidents 400! I didn't go this year.

    The best advice is to get zeros at all of the ranges that will be shot, 200, 300, and 600 yds. Shoot in local full course matches is one way, shoot in one (or more, there are 3 of them) of the preliminary 80 round matches at Perry that allow sighters, or go to the squadded practice at Perry which this year was the day before the P100. There aren't sighters and you can't drop many points if you're serious.

    Good luck!
     
  3. PWC

    PWC Member

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    Why all the switching? Just use Master Po's come-ups:

    Re: 600 yard come-ups?

    From: Master Po
    EMail: [email protected]
    Date: 08 Jul 1999
    Time: 11:57:52

    Comments

    This formula works for me for .223, 7.62mm and .30/06. It will get you on paper and a
    lot of the time in the black. caliber, bullet or velocity doesn't matter.

    From a 100 yard zero come up 2 minutes for 200 yards.

    From a 200 yard zero come up 3 minutes for 300 yards.

    From a 300 yard zero come up 7 minutes for 500 yards.

    From a 300 yard zero come up 11 minutes for 600 yards.

    From a 500 yard zero come up 4 minutes for 600 yards.

    I normally have to touch up the elevation at 600 but my 200 and 300 come-ups are usually in
    the 10 and X rings no matter what rifle I'm shooting.

    Master Po
     
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  4. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Thank you for your post.
    The only difference is that for the P100, I want to use two different bullet weight or grain. If I were to use the same, then your post would be enough.
     
  5. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Thank you for your input!
    I do value the recommendations from somebody with the experience on this type of competition.
    My expectations are not very high, but then again, who knows?
    I will follow your recommendations, and will zero the scope at the required ranges and collect data to have a game plan for the day of competition. I wanted to use 80Gr SMK, but they are out of stock in the stores where I shop for my supplies.
    Where did you stay for the event? How many days?
    Do you use a leather sling? I have opted for the cotton sling designed for the M1. I like it that I can adjust it very quick.
    I plan to go without a jacket, just a glove, and will start training next month, and plan to attend some matches at CMP Talladega to get a better idea how the event will go. My local range gets windy some days, so, I will use it to learn to read the wind.
     
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  6. PWC

    PWC Member

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    Not really, once you establish your different 100 and 200 yd come-ups for each bullet type, the rest will follow.
     
  7. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    There's nothing wrong with a cloth sling. If you set it up correctly it doesn't slip. I use a leather sling and it always slips a little bit.

    Last year I stayed in a friends RV that was parked in a nearby State Park. I have also stayed in the barracks on base for many years. Its nice to be on base and the barracks are cheap but the most spartan of accommodations. A group of us used to go and stay in the same room so that made it bearable. I've also stayed in nearby motels in past years.

    It's about a 3 1/2 hour drive from my house and I went up the day before and drove home the day after. Allow a couple of hours the day you get there to check in and have your trigger weighed. Vendors set up shops along "commercial row" and it used to be worth it just to go there and shop for reloading supplies and other shooting gear. I heard that there wasn't much to buy this year. Fin, Fur, and Feather didn't go this year and they were always a great place to stock up on bullets, powder, and primers. You have to check out the CMP North store which is also on the base. Great place to shop for a Garand!

    I'd call the housing office at Camp Perry when they start to take reservations in April and see what they say. There's other options beside the barracks on base but I've never stayed in any of them. The nice options sell out quick so call early. Oh, yeah, the first year I went I stayed in a hut, which is also cheap and spartan. A hut (originally for WWII POW's) has 4 bunks and they have been remodeled recently. Plenty of motels along the Lake Erie shore to check out also.

    The matches at Perry require you to do pit duty which isn't needed with the electronic targets at Talladega. If I'm not mistaken, you stay at the same firing line at Talladega and the targets are at different distances. At Perry, the targets are in the pits and you move between firing lines, so you'll need some sort of range cart or be able to carry all of you equipment on your back. Possible, but not easy in the 90* humidity and sun even if you are in good shape. The matches move at a pretty rapid pace and they're not going to wait for you. Two minutes to move your gear to the firing line, then a 3 minute prep period, then you're shooting. You'll be rushed so be prepared.

    No jacket? That's crazy! Baking in the sun with a quilted jacket and sweatshirt at 90* is part of the fun. Almost as good as getting eaten alive by mosquitos when you assemble before daybreak.

    Here's the Marine team making a quiet entrance to the team match.

    marines.png
     
  8. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    So you have been attending the event for a while!
    For me, this is what I would consider a "Bucket List Item". It probably will be one of the most demanding event, but it is now or never. Not that I have an expiration date or anything like that, but I feel like if I do not take care of it soon enough, it will be one of those "What if".

    I live like 12 hours away, so it will be a road trip for me. I will probably stay overnight somewhere in WV, and plan to get there early enough to get familiar with the site. I think I can get a transient room, they look good, at least on their website.
    I told somebody at work that I would consider mission accomplished if my rifle gets a tag after the inspection, shooting the match will be gravy!

    I have a pile of 5.56 brass that I have to work on, and plan to reload most for practice. I like the 2.23 brass, because I do not have to remove the military crimp, but I am running low on 2.23 brass.
    Yeah! No jacket! Now that I am older, I have gotten soft, and I do not want to shoot from a sauna room. It is bad enough that I will be sweating from all of the activity!
    Thank you for sharing!
     
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  9. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    I will give it a try.
     
  10. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Removed by poster
     
  11. Jerry M

    Jerry M Member

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    Sorry, but this event is for the top shooters in the country. Know your zeroes at the requried ranges and be a proficient across-the-course shooter. Very few points separate those in the top 100 from everyone else. Unless you're going to shoot it for fun.

    Good Luck
     
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  12. garandsrus

    garandsrus Member

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    I shoot High Power across the course with 69gr for 200, 77gr at 300 and 80gr at 600. Changing bullets doesn’t matter at all. I know the number of clicks to come up from a 200 yd zero with 69gr bullets for the other two ranges, with the bullet weight for that range. I have no idea where the 77gr bullet would go at 600yds because my come up is for the 80gr bullet. I do stay with the same powder for all three bullet weights.

    I am not sure where you are at, but check out CMP Leg Matches. They will be across the course so you can get experience at the distances. They are held around the country. The only real difference between these matches and the P100 match is that you will not shoot sitting in the P100 and will only shoot 10 rounds at 600 yds.

    As for Perry, a day or so before the P100 match they have a sight in session. I don’t know how it currently works, but it used to be 15 min to shoot as many rounds as you wanted to. I don’t remember if it was only 600 yds, but probably was. If you are shooting the P100, you might as well shoot the National Match the next day! Then, you can stay a couple more days and shoot the Garand, Springfield, Carbine, and a bunch of other matches.

    I have stayed in the barracks and it is fine. About $15/day.

    I missed the P100 cutoff one year by one or two positions and made it another year. It is a big achievement in High Power because the match is only held once per year. There were about 1400 shooters the year I made it. That was back in the days of iron sights. A score of 285 or so out of 300 is required to make the cut. It has probably gone up a few points since scopes were allowed.
     
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  13. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Wow!
    Such a big accomplishment!
    As stated before, I have not competed in any discipline at all, but I am willing to give it a try.
    Thank you for your perspective on this topic.
     
  14. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Well, if I were to take life very seriously, it would make for a somber day.
    I just want to see what a "Simple Joe" can do. And since I do not have to qualify for this, why not!
    I do appreciate your input.
    Have you taken a shot at this competition?
     
  15. Jerry M

    Jerry M Member

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    Yes, I shot it years ago with the Maryland State Rifle Team. it's very competitive. Just wanted to let you know.

    Also, it's not the match you want to attend without experience in the pits, pulling and marking targets. There your accuracy and timing will effect other shooters.

    Good Luck
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  16. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    It can be. Camp Perry is the Mecca of Highpower shooting. A lot of people go for the experience, not because they think they can win. I thought that the P100 was kind of a celebration, the opening match of the main competitions.

    But I don't think the P100 is a good place to start if you've never shot in a across the course highpower match. The OP should consider attending the small Arms Firing School and the M16 EIC Match which precede the P100. It would be a good start, get him acclimated to the ranges and pits, and allow him time to pick up any equipment that he needs, like a shooting jacket.

    The important skills are to give good pit service, know and follow the range commands, and be safe. No one but you will remember how well you shoot.
     
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  17. wanderinwalker

    wanderinwalker Member

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    This, times 100! I haven't been to Perry in over a decade, but it was always the highlight of our Highpower season. I went 3 times with the NH State Rifle Team. Sadly, no President's 100 tab for me, though I think I did make the top 300 twice. I did make the cut for points in the National Trophy match on the second day during my last foray to the shores of Lake Erie.

    For the OP, you'll want to be familiar with range commands and protocol before going. You'll definitely want to be comfortable with pulling pit duty. Last I knew years ago, Small Arms Firing School was considered a requirement for people who were at Camp Perry for the first time. The M-16 EIC Match came into being my last year or 2, and since I had leg points by then, I was ineligible to compete in that one.

    Back to the OP's question, you'll want to have proven sight dope from prior matches. Dope is actually short for Data On Previous Engagements. Most of us had a shooting log book to record sight settings, wind and weather conditions, range lighting, round count, target plots, shot calls and other important variables at each match. Though occasionally some of us would close the book when we had a day when we were in the groove.

    The sight come ups PWC quoted seem about right. Off the top of my head I think my specific 80-grain .223 loads were 12-minutes of elevation up from a 300 yard zero to 600 yards. From 200 yards to 300 yards the general come-up was 3-minutes. Keep in mind the short-line ammo was a completely different bullet and loading than the 600 yard choice.

    As to your different loads, don't overthink or over-complicate things. A 69 grain HPBT from a hot-loaded .223 Remington will shoot little knots out to 300 yards without even breaking a sweat. Then for switch to an 80 grain HPBT single-loaded for the 600 yard line. I vaguely remember the 90gr Matchkings and 1-6.5" twist barrels being considered a bit of an experimental dead-end a decade ago, mostly because the extra speed the 80s offered more than offset the extra ballistic coefficient of the 90s. Perhaps things have changed since I dropped out, but I do know where I'd start if I got back into the game. And yes, I've also shot out a barrel using 77 grain HPBTs for my short-line ammo. My 200 and 300 yard ammo really depended on what bullets I could find a good supply of, I never worried about the difference in wind drift even at 300 yards.
     
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  18. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    One person wins any competition, the rest are there for fun. Well, they didn’t go there to loose at least. So, if they had fun, that’s their “win”.
     
  19. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    ....and getting yelled at LoL. There so much GOOD info here it should be a sticky in Comp.:thumbup: Hehe

    You probably have a club closer to you that has, at a minimum, a reduced course (300yds) matches, GO THERE and soak in. Volunteer to run the pits. Pick up tips etc.

    You NEED wheels. MUST HAVE. A cart, folding recreational wagon (W**Mar*) or even a baby stroller you are NOT humping alllll your gear from the parking lot to the 1st firing line, then TIMED reassembling it all back to 300 then 600.

    Chamber flag chamber flag chamber flag. Then repeat.;)

    Last time I shot Perry it drizzled then light rain on 200; rain on 3; REAL rain with a 40 min delay on the 600yd. YOU WILL THANK ME later, surprise you are 50 feet from the great lakes, put some $coin into rain gear WITH pants. Frog Toggs are very light weight. You will also want a rain cover for your gear.

    After it cleared, THEN it got a new definition of hot haha

    Everyone thusfar has probably shot the course more then me. I guess (this game) I'm still novice level. Looking ahead now for next year is a good indication, download and familiarize yourself with the rules book, good luck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  20. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    Don’t switch powders. Use the same powder for all your loads.

    zero the rifle at 100 with your short range Ammo (69g smk) in case you want to shoot 100 yard reduced matches. Then just gather data for other bullets and longer distances. It’s really easy
     
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  21. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    That is my train of thoughts as well. Of course I know my limitations! At least the targets will not shoot back, so, definitely it will be a big party for me, even if I finish deal last!
    I do thank to all for the recommendations.
     
  22. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Thank you for your indications.
    I will use the same powder and will zero at 200 and go from there. I did zero the rifle for 100 yards with the 77 and 90Gr SMK while breaking-in the new barrel.
     
  23. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    The elements are always part of any sport, and I think I have the rain gear figured out. GoreTex top and bottom, water proof (that is what the label reads) socks, a tarp to cover my gear and bungee cords (I used to carry second poncho for this purpose), and a healthy portion of "Embrace the Suck" soup.
    One thing I do not have is a cart. I will swing by one of the hardware stores to pick one up.

    I have several "Manatee Gun Club" chamber flags, and some new flags that I have not used at all. The people at "Manatee" allow me to shoot there for free when I am in the area, so nice range!

    I have the latest rules book, and I read it often just so I get used to the layout. I am also deep in learning from some of the best shooters that have been there, and got their certificate/tab/badge. I know I do not have the chance to shoot and practice as many hours as they do/did to prepare for competition, but I do train. My local range allows me to setup targets as I want, and I use their mule to carry the frames and targets. It is a 1000 yards range, so, plenty of space.
    Thank you for your input.
     
  24. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    If you’re shooting with an optic fine but if using service rifle NM iron sights, I’d really recommend zero them at 100
     
  25. Tinker-S

    Tinker-S Member

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    Thank you for your thoughts.
    I plan to attend some matches at CMP Talladega before the end of the year. I read on the CMP website that no personally owned rifles are allowed on the M-16 EIC match, but I will call their POC to find out what or who would provide the rifles. It seems like the one match I was looking at is geared toward High School teams, but I am not sure.

    The matches at Talladega do not employ the same targets as Camp Perry. The targets are all electronics. I have shot using that kind of setup before. I did not have to walk to see my score, it was all on a monitor.
     
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