labnoti said: "Michael Platt"
A) It was my impression that the bloody gunfight in Miami in 1986 between Michael Lee Platt and a number of FBI agents was considered to be a tactical failure in several ways by the FBI before the shooting even began, and that trying to put blame on the inadequate penetration of one bullet was seen as an attempt by the FBI to divert blame. My impression of that comes from the articles Masaad Ayoob wrote about the shootout in "American Handgunner" magazine. I have not read them for years, but I think I cut them out and can get them if desired.
B) The shooting was in April 1986. Are you saying there has been no progress in pistol bullet design in 34 years? Nothing has gotten better, not even a result of the Miami shootout? Wow, that's bold. I bet a bunch of ammo companies would beg to differ.
Look, if you feel I asked an unfair or contentious question, fine. Neither of us are experts (especially not me). When people throw around terms like "inadequate penetration", I wonder what they mean, because inadequate expansion seems to be the problem far more often. For decades, with old fashioned RN bullets, we got all the penetration we could get, and the results were not adequate for police use. That is the whole reason HP pistol bullets were developed. If the penetration of some HP bullets are inadequate, I would like to know roughly what inadequate is.
I don't have any .380's. I only shoot revolvers. So I don't have a horse in this game and this isn't a personal issue with me. My own opinions about what "adequate" penetration are really irrelevant compared to the overwhelming popularity of 12" to 18" in 10% ordinance gelatin that was promoted by Dr. Fackler, accepted by the FBI, and that has become the single greatest influencing factor in handgun ammunition development for all major handgun ammunition manufacturers in the US market. There are plenty of sound arguments against gel. I am not advocating gel. But it would be ignorant to think that gel has not influenced ammo and bullet design heavily since the Miami shootout and that performance in gel doesn't remain today the single most important criteria for handgun ammo makers and major buyers like government and law enforcement. There simply isn't another factor that is given even close to as much attention.
I don't have lots of gel test results for .380. What I do have are the ones provided by Lucky Gunner. LG used clear synthetic gel instead of 10% real gelatin. The results can be questioned to some degree, but they still illustrate my point:
data from Luckygunner.com
I have sorted the table by bullet expansion. Notice that top half of the defensive ammo sampled expands by more than just a couple hundreths of an inch. They also mostly fail to meet the 12" minimum penetration standard. There are a couple exceptions with the Hornady Critical Defense and the Remington Ultimate Defense. The Remington expands inconsistently and appears to penetrate sufficiently for the standard when it doesn't expand. The Hornady shows good expansion, but barely meets the penetration standard. It is probably one of the most carefully designed-for-gel bullets available. If you believe that bullet design has made wonderful advancements since Miami, this is the one (and maybe only?) .380 cartridge there is for evidence. The table shows that for most .380 ammo, no there hasn't been much advancement. The 115gr. 9x19mm Winchester Silvertips used in Miami would perform about the same as the rest of these low-penetration .380 hollowpoints. 9x19 Silvertips penetrate about 9". The bottom half of the table shows bullets that oftentimes penetrated very well, but did not expand. While these bullets appear to have failed any intention to expand, they would at least reach sufficient depth to cause wounding to vitals. If the gel standard is given credence, that much seems hard to expect from something like the Winchester Train & Defend.
Here is the same data sorted by penetration. The top half of the of the sampled ammo did not penetrate to the 12" standard. Looking at the expansion column for the bottom half the chart, we can see that most of the bullets that did penetrate sufficiently to meet the standard did not expand more than a couple hundreths of an inch. We can see in the pictures what that expansion looked like.
The takeway seems to be that with .380, you can have expansion or penetration, but there aren't many choices of ammunition that will give both. The Hornady FTX Critical Defense did well by this test's criteria. If a person puts faith in this kind of test, they might be a good choice. On the other hand, a person could choose a FMJ bullet and have reasonable confidence they will get the kind of penetration seen by these hollowpoints that didn't expand.
Choosing penetration over expansion at the cost of marginal penetration has been the advice of some wound ballistics experts like Dr. Fackler. This is why hollowpoints were forsaken in .38 Special in favor of wadcutters. What's the right choice? Well, Paul Harrel would say, "you be the judge."