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Question on MP5's and NFA stuff

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Fly320s, May 31, 2003.

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  1. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

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    I am very seriously considering starting the process to buy a HK MP5 (or what resembles one for us un-chosen types).

    Once I own the gun are there any restrictions on buying parts for it? I know I'll want to have spare parts and maybe different stocks available for my use, but can I also have a different trigger group? Or would that be a seperately regulated item?

    One more thing... Somewhere out there on the internet I had found an excellent source of information on the MP5. It told all about the different conversions, which is better, how to inspect the gun, and other good-to-know info. Anyone have a link to that?

    Thanks
     
  2. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    I am very seriously considering starting the process to buy a HK MP5 (or what resembles one for us un-chosen types).

    well, which are you going to do? buy a lookalike or an MP5? that will ultimately determine the rules you need to follow.

    for instance.

    option 1: buy an MP5

    cost - $9-12K
    can have a threaded barrel, collapsable stock, any trigger pack you choose.
    can posses spare machine-gun parts
    pay $200 tax

    option 2: buy a lookalike "MP5"

    you either get a HK94 for $3-4K or an SW5 for $1100 or so.
    either way, no machine-gun parts allowed.
    HK94 can have a threaded barrel, SW5 no.
    HK94 can have a folding stock, SW5 no.

    ive seen and used all 3 (MP5, HK94 and SW5) and really, i dont see a difference (at least with the SW5 i used - it had been converted to an MP5 by a class II - post dealer sample)

    anyhow, either way if you want it to look like an MP5 (ie, short barrel) then you have to pay the $200 SBR tax.

    to be honest, from my experiences I would either get a newer SW5 (with plastic SEF lower) or have a smith build one on an SW5 receiver then SBR it. Hell, ive seen SWAT teams that dont even have full auto - just SBR'd HK94's.

    with the short barreled rifle you at least get to have the gun to use until your Form 1 (manufacture of a Class III) is approved. the machine-gun you dont get until the Form 4 (transfer of a Class III) is approved. i like my toys now.

    your mileage may vary of course.
     
  3. Schuey2002

    Schuey2002 Member

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    www.hkpro.com ? :confused:
     
  4. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Hkmp5sd...calling Hkmp5sd... :)
     
  5. MAKOwner

    MAKOwner Member

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    Quick question about SBRs, does registering a SBR then give the ATF the right to search your home/inspect said firearm every year like with a full on Class III? Is it the same application process, fill out form, CLEO signs it, mail in with tax, wait 4+ months, etc? Just wondering. I have been thinking about either a semi auto Uzi or SW5 and going SBR with them. Seems like they'd be fun and just about ideal for home defense in a shortbarreled 9mm package... There's also the fact that they plain don't look right with a thin 16 inch barrel hanging out there or wearing a fake can which negates most of their "coolness" IMO, lol...
     
  6. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    no, they cant come to inspect your house or firearms.

    even with a class III dealer or class II manufacture i believe the ATF can only search their place of business/manufacture. and they have to give you 24 hrs notice.

    IMO i wouldnt use an NFA weapon for home defense. if you ever had to use it, it would turn out to be a giant pain.

    a good ol scattergun is the best anyhow.
     
  7. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

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    Ok, SkaerE, if I buy a HK94 then have it converted to an SBR can I later have it converted to a subgun?

    I do want the select-fire capability and the SBR style. So, I guess that narrows it down to the MP5?

    Another one... is each trigger pack on an MP5 registered individually?
     
  8. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    gets tricky then.

    now, yes you can get an HK94 SBR it and then get a registered sear to make it a sear gun (select fire) i think the sear will probably cost you $5K or so. i dont remeber what the "going price" is right now.

    the good thing about a sear is that you can take and put it in a HK94 (thereby making an MP5) an HK91 and i believe an HK93. Im fairly certain that the HK sears fit in all 3 guns.

    thats fine and dandy, but if you are gonna get a sear, you might want to think about getting a $1100 SW5 and SBR'ing it then adding the sear (lets you have a threaded barrel, folding stock, and its select fire) much MUCH cheaper than buying an HK94. but if you ever take the sear out you have to convert the SW5 (called the host gun back to its postban status. (no threaded barrel, fixed stock)

    i think that you also need to get other full auto parts (bolt and bolt carrier?) to convert the HK94/SW5 to an MP5 in addition to the sear. those also have to be removed with the sear.

    its really a giant pain in the ???. and i dont have enough cash to feed a full auto anyhow.

    like i said, i would just SBR something, but again, thats just me :)
     
  9. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    :D


    Most MP5s are actually registered sears on converted HK-94s. In that case, the sear is what ATF considers the machinegun. The sear is generally installed into a trigger group and remains there and that is how it is transfered in the event it is sold without being part of a complete gun. With this configuration, you can own several uppers, such as the normal HK-94 (which becomes a MP5 with the trigger group) and a SP-89 (which becomes a MP5K with the trigger group).

    The HK-94 upper may or may not be registered as a SBR depending on several things. A "machinegun" can have any length barrel and be any overall length. The trigger group can be "married" to the upper without it being registered as a SBR. The problem arises when you remove the trigger group and install it on another firearm, since you can then be in possession of an unregistered SBR.

    And believe it or not, depending on how the firearm was registered, you can buy a "complete" MP5 sear gun that is also registered as a SBR, remove the automatic sear and sell it to another person, put a semi-automatic trigger group on your registed SBR upper and be in violation of creating a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. Why? Because your registered HK-94 SBR was not a fully assembled semi-automatic assault weapon on Sept. 13, 1994 and thus, cannot now be made into a pre-ban configuration.

    Since this is your first NFA item, I'd recommend purchasing a "complete" machinegun instead of getting the various registered parts and putting them together. If you are looking for a small submachinegun, in addition to the MP5, you might want to look at a registered Uzi or Mac 10/11. I think you can still pick up a Cobray M11/9 for around $1,500. Throw on a barrel extension and vertical foregrip and you have a halfway decent subgun.

    As for spare parts, ATF is very, very picky about that subject. For example, I own an M16A1 and an AR-15. They have decided that by having both, if I were to possess any spare M16 parts, I am in fact in possession of an unregistered machinegun. This is even if the parts are not installed on the AR and even if I don't have all of the parts necessary to convert the AR.
     
  10. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    you might want to look at a registered Uzi or Mac 10/11. I think you can still pick up a Cobray M11/9 for around $1,500. Throw on a barrel extension and vertical foregrip and you have a halfway decent subgun.

    ive seen uppers and stocks for the M10 or M11 that make it into a formidable subgun. one that can out preform many more expensive weapons.

    hell, ive seen one upper for the M10 (or M11) that essentially converts it into a SAW. (squad automatic weapon) from what i remeber it was quite pricey.

    if i was set on getting a real subgun, i'd probably get an M16 w/9mm upper. you cant beat the M16 for being the most versitile Class III weapon. 223 uppers, 9mm uppers, 22lr upper (which i would love, cause im cheap :)) you can get a M16 lower reciever (the registered part) for about $6K or so, less if you shop around and are patient.

    or an UZI, very nice and about 1/3 the price of a MP5.
     
  11. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Like this one?

    :)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    i have seen that one before, but its not the one im talking about. the one im talking about is made by a local class II around here. its very nice, and very accurate.
     
  13. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Speaking of M16 uppers, I've been thinking of this one....

    [​IMG]
     
  14. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    nice, but unless its something less expensive like 8mm i'd have to pass.
     
  15. Destructo6

    Destructo6 Member

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    You really need to read the article on HK NFA conversions that is at the bottom of HKPRO's main page. It's a reprint from Small Arms Review that was originally done in 3 parts. It covers just about everything.

    You'd probably have a hard time finding a transferable HK sear separate from a gun these days.
     
  16. 444

    444 Member

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    "Quick question about SBRs, does registering a SBR then give the ATF the right to search your home/inspect said firearm every year like with a full on Class III? Is it the same application process, fill out form, CLEO signs it, mail in with tax, wait 4+ months, etc? "

    It doesn't look like anyone answered all of this; The only difference in the application process is that you do a Form 1. The rest of it is the same. CLEO sign off, fingerprints, photos, wait. After you get your tax stamp you then may buy the parts for the SBR or at least assemble them into an SBR.
    Anyone please feel free to correct me or add to this; I have never registered an SBR but this is how I understand the proceedure.

    One other thing; and again, please correct me if this is wrong but I believe you have to have a pre-ban lower to register it as an SBR ? Or is that only to add a suppressor ?

    I would really like to know all this because I would like to register two carbines as SBRs and probably suppress at least one of them. Both are pre-ban rifles; one is a Colt Lightweight Sporter in 9mm, the other an Oly 5.56 carbine. I read what I could find on the net, printed out the Form 1 complete with all my information but never went ahead with it because I am not completely sure of all the ins and outs.
     
  17. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    must be preban to have a suppressor or threaded barrel. post ban SBR's are fine.

    file your Form 1, pay the tax wait to be approved.

    chop off the barrel. engrave your info on it somewhere (as the manufacturer of the class III weapon)

    its fairly simple.

    in fact, you can get a SW5 variant that has a short barrel with a tack welded on "suppressor" (its fake) you can file the Form 1 and once its approved, just grind off the tack weld and all of a sudden you have made a class III weapon. in fact, that SW5 has a 3 lug barrel, just like the MP5. you just cant suppress it because its post ban.

    clear as mud eh?
     
  18. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Fly320s,

    Are you going to go through Craig's or Gunsha.. er, Guncraft?

    Either one will happily hold your hand through the process.

    If you go to either, tell 'em I sent you.
     
  19. 444

    444 Member

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    Thanks, any further info would be appreciated. I have the forms all printed out, filled out, photos, and fingerprints; all I need are the CLEO signatures. I am tempted to just do the suppresor at the same time but I don't want to go overboard. This will be the third time I have been in there which would be a total of five different signoffs not counting the additional suppressor (s).
     
  20. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    it was recommended to me, and i will do the same to you, that you stagger your form 1's and form 4's about 1 month apart. it spreads out the $200 tax for each, making it easier on the wallet and you get a steady bunch of toys throughout the next couple of months.
     
  21. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Technically, it has to be a complete pre-ban rifle with enough evil features to be classified as an AW. A pre-ban lower or a preban rifle not assembled as an AW in '94 cannot have the threaded barrel/suppressor. (I'll be glad when we get rid of this garbage next year!)

    FWIW, on guns like the HK-94 that you want to convert to the integral suppressed MP5SD, you can do the Form 4 as a SBR/Suppressor at the same time and same form, saving $200.

    You can do the same by including an integral suppressor in the 9mm AR upper.
     
  22. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    444,
    If you have questions, I would contact your local ATF office. I've dealt with mine over the years and they were always very helpful and always got me an answer. Only call DC as a last resort as they tend to be the ones who are lost. I would call and make an appointment and go down in person and talk to someone. This way if you have any other questions in the future, you can always call and ask for that person and they will at least know you and it makes it easier. Lot less run around and you have your own "personal agent" :)
    Dont let the fact that the big glass double doors to their offices are locked and you need to be buzzed in bother you. They are more paranoid than we are. :)
     
  23. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    FWIW, on guns like the HK-94 that you want to convert to the integral suppressed MP5SD, you can do the Form 4 as a SBR/Suppressor at the same time and same form, saving $200.

    You can do the same by including an integral suppressor in the 9mm AR upper.


    well, sort of. i believe for it to be an integral, it isnt a SBR anyhow. it has a short barrel, but if the length of the barrel/suppressor combo is over 16'' and you cant remove the suppressor then it isnt a short barreled rifle. if you can remove it, you need to have it registered as a SBR as well (and pay the other $200 tax)

    either way, has to be a preban weapon.

    i also have a problem with the way this is worded:

    And believe it or not, depending on how the firearm was registered, you can buy a "complete" MP5 sear gun that is also registered as a SBR, remove the automatic sear and sell it to another person, put a semi-automatic trigger group on your registed SBR upper and be in violation of creating a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. Why? Because your registered HK-94 SBR was not a fully assembled semi-automatic assault weapon on Sept. 13, 1994 and thus, cannot now be made into a pre-ban configuration.

    as far as i know, ALL HK94's are preban and were complete rifles before the ban. The weapon did not have to be a AW on the day of the ban, just before it.

    and definitly take AK's advice and call and talk to the ATF agent. they should know whats going on. :rolleyes:
     
  24. 444

    444 Member

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    HK: What is an AW ?


    I don't know if it is nessessary to talk to ATF about this, it seems straightforward but of course, I may be missing something. One thing that makes this SBR issue a problem is that since you not going through a dealer, you don't have anyone to answer your questions. I don't feel right talking to a dealer when he knows I am not buying anything. I did go to the local ATF office to get fingerprint cards for my subgun. It had more security than the airport. They had guards at the door. I had to give them a reason why I was there and who I talked to about it. They then called that person who appearently said it was OK to let me in. I then went through a metal detector. When I got to the second floor, the person came out of a locked office with the fingerprint cards and I was never allowed to enter their office-this all took place in the hall.
    A friend of mine is currently buying an American 180. This is his first purchase and he called the local ATF office and asked to talk to an agent. They told him that since this office covers a wide geographical area and since the agents were so busy, it would be highly unlikely that he be able to talk to an agent in any reasonable period of time.

    As far as staggering the purchases, this really wouldn't be nessessary. I got the subgun already. I ordered two suppressed .22s and have the paperwork ready for when they come in. The only remaining thing right now is the SBRs and possibly the suppressors. I would like to have both so that I can switch out the suppressed upper with a short upper, so it appears to me that I would have to register the receiver as an SBR, and then also register the suppressors ?
     
  25. SkaerE

    SkaerE Member

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    AW = "Assault weapon" according to the 1994 ban.

    the best place on the web to ask specific questions is probably here:

    www.subguns.com

    i think many of the regulars that post there know more about the ATF's rules than the ATF does. :D

    go to the message boards and then to NFA discussion. you can post a question and it will be generally be answered in a matter of minutes-hours.

    the reason i send you there is because im not really sure about the SBR receiver thing. im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper.

    i am sure that the suppressor needs to be registered as such (a suppressor)
     
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