Question on MP5's and NFA stuff

[Hkmp5sd]

well, sort of. i believe for it to be an integral, it isnt a SBR anyhow. it has a short barrel,

My MP5SD integrally suppressed upper is registered on a Form 4 as a Short Barreled Rifle/Suppressor.

as far as i know, ALL HK94's are preban and were complete rifles before the ban. The weapon did not have to be a AW on the day of the ban, just before it.

Nope. ATF has even ruled that if a pre-ban, grandfathered assault weapon with all applicable features legally possessed on 9/13/94 that has been disassembled and all parts with the exception of the receiver are sold to another person, that receiver cannot be assembled back into a pre-ban AW. It would now be a post-ban assault weapon.

Not only does the firearm have to been assembled into a complete assault weapon configuration on the effective date, it must have retained that configuration to this date. It can be disassembled and made into other configurations as long as all the parts of the preban AW are retained by the owner and it can be returned to a preban condition.

So an HK-94 upper with a registered trigger group cannot be made back into a pre-ban semi-automatic HK-94 with collapsible buttstock, threaded barrel or other evil features causing it to fall under the definition of an semi-automatic assault weapon.


444: "semi-automatic assault weapon" as currently defined by our federal government.

As for contacting ATF, the best way to do that is to send a written letter to their Technical Branch stating everything you have and want to do and get their reply in writing. They deal with this stuff every day and the local ATF agent may not be fully up to speed on all of the ins and outs.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper.

That depends on how many lowers you own. I have an M16A1 with a 14.5" Bushmaster upper which is not registered (nor required to be) as a SBR. ATF has decided that since I also own an AR-15, if I own TWO 14.5" uppers, I am actually in possession of ONE unregistered SBR since it can be readily installed on my AR.

 

[444]

"the reason i send you there is because im not really sure about the SBR receiver thing. im not sure if its "ok" to swap one short barrelled upper to another or if as a SBR it needs to retain the registered upper."

I don't know either, but one comment. As far as I know, the lower is registered as an SBR; it is the serial numbered item. None of my AR uppers have a serial number. Of course none of them are SBR uppers either, so this may change things. I know that I have to engrave information on the gun once it is registered as an SBR, and I was under the impression that the information is engraved on the lower. I did ask my local dealer some questions about this subject and he told me that once the reciever is registered as an SBR, you can put any upper you want on it. Both of these carbines are pre-ban with all the evil features. Well, no, I guess the 9mm doesn't have a bayonet lug. But, it was my understanding that I could register these carbines as SBRs and I could also return them to original condition by changing the upper and be OK. He even said I could sell the carbine as a regular civilian pre-ban carbine if returned to original condition. I believe this is similar to your M16. I believe I am correct in saying that you can put any upper you want on your registered lower ?

This subject seems to have many nuances that raise a lot of questions. Maybe I should talk to ATF.

 

[SkaerE]

aparantly i stand corrected.

man, these rules change more often than the tides.

they really should get their act together.

oh well, one last thing to say...

VOTE and LET YOUR CONGRESSMAN KNOW YOU WANT THEM TO VOTE AGAINST ANY NEW BAN! at least then we can get rid of a lot of these worthless "rules"

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I believe I am correct in saying that you can put any upper you want on your registered lower ?

Yes. That is why I can remove the A1 upper and install a 14.5" upper on my M16A1 lower without registering it as a SBR.

If you make a SBR from semi- AR, the way to do it is register the upper as a SBR instead of registering the "rifle" as a SBR. This is done by adding a serial number on the upper and doing the Form 1.

Hopefully, this will all be academic in about a year, but if you take a preban AR and convert it (or it's upper) to a SBR, make sure you keep enough evil features that it is still considered an "assault weapon." This will allow you to return it to a semi-automatic AW if they do extend the ban next year.

It is technically possible to convert a pre-ban AW into a registered SBR that is does not fall under the assault weapon ban. If you then wanted to add a suppressor to the registered SBR, you would be in violation of manufacturing a post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon.

(Man, I hate this stuff. A gun is a gun.)

 

[444]

I have a headache and need to lay down

You lost me on that one.
Why would you want to register the upper ? This would eliminate your ability to put whatever upper you want on the lower ?

If I register a pre-ban as an SBR, I have to put a flash suppressor, or bayonet lug on the upper to have it remain an AW ? Or I guess I could leave the collapsable stock on it and this would still be an AW ?

I thought if I added a suppressor to a pre-ban registered SBR I would still be OK ?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Sorry. If the upper is a registered SBR, like the one on my MP5, you can put any lower on it your desire and own as many lowers you want without gettng bit by having enough parts to assemble an unregistered firearm. Just makes life a little easier if you want to have several different configurations.

Your ARs are now configured pre-ban assault weapons. Keep them configured that way. If you chop your upper off, just go ahead and thread the barrel. That is enough for it to keep your pre-ban AR classified as an assault weapon and you'll also be ready to add a suppressor later on.

I thought if I added a suppressor to a pre-ban registered SBR I would still be OK ?

Only if the pre-ban registered SBR was also configured as a pre-ban assault weapon. In other words, just because an AR receiver was made before 1994, it isn't automatically a pre-ban assault weapon. The same applies to a SBR that was registered prior to 1994. Even with the short barrel, if it didn't have the evil features before 1994, it cannot have them added now.

 

[444]

The problem is that I don't really see the need to try different lowers with my upper. With the AR, I can change stocks at will. The cool thing to me would be the ability to change uppers. Have one that is a real short flat top with a RAS II and all the bling bling, one that is a 14.5 M4 knockoff, and one that is suppressed while all the while being able to put my 16" upper back on it if I want.
I never considered the problem of having extra uppers lying around that could be considered unregistered SBRs though. I wonder if it would be playing with fire to have multiple 9mm uppers and only one 9mm lower. Technically you could put the uppers on a 5.56 lower, but you would also have to have a mag block to actually fire it. Crap, this might not be worth it if I have to stick with one upper for the lower.
On the 5.56 I could get by if I had one short upper and one suppressed upper since the suppressor would be registed itself, although I suppose in order to do that, the suppressor would have to be permenent because once you removed it, you would now have multiple SB uppers once again.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Look at it this way. You own two preban ARs. You register one AR as a SBR and chop off the barrel. Later on, you buy a <16" 9mm upper to use on your registered SBR AR receiver. You now have 2 uppers <16" and one normal AR-15 rifle.

According to ATF, you are now in possession to TWO SBRs simply because you have enough short barreled uppers to convert both of your ARs into SBRs at the same time.

 

[444]

Ok, I went in and took a shower and thought this over. You were saying the same thing all along and I couldn't punch in.

A) If I register two AR lower receivers as SBRs, buy numerous short uppers for them, I will then be in possession of unregistered SBRs since I also own other normal ARs.

B) If I register the uppers, then I can't have a problem because then the upper can legally go on any lower.

So, now that I got that, I see this isn't much worse than it was to begin with. I was planning on spending $400 in tax stamps for two SBRs, plus possibly another $400 in two tax stamps for two suppressors. So, if I bought one 9mm upper with a 10" barrel and all the trick stuff on it including a bi-lock, I could have pretty much everything I wanted. Or, I could buy that upper and a 9mm upper with an integral suppressor and still be legal. Then I could do the same with a 5.56 upper and be legally good to go.

Now, this brings up another thing. The evil features of an AW include the lower. How would I construct an upper so that it is still classified as an AW ? I guess there are only two things that make an upper an AW; flash suppressor, and a bayonet lug. If either is present, it is an AW, so that shouldn't be a problem either.

Then I assume that since I need to engrave a serial number etc. to the registered item, the way to go with be to engrave the actual upper receiver itself and not the barrel. That way, if I really wanted to change things drastically, I could unscrew the barrel, or remove any other part and the receiver is still the registered part.

Thank you for putting up with all this. I don't know why I didn't see this from the beginning. Or maybe I do

Then there is always the option of simply buying a full auto lower and then I could have any barrel I wanted. And then get a suppressor.
No, I bought these two carbines I have now with the idea of doing this, I don't need a third gun to add to the mix.
Hey, here is another question. How does all this work with a registered auto-sear ? If you put the auto sear in the gun, can you now also have a short barrel ? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I think I screwed that last one up a little bit. I keep thinking a full auto lower. Sorry about that.

Until you throw an autosear into the mix, you are perfectly fine registering your AR as a SBR and chopping the upper.

If you only own one AR, you can register it as a SBR and have as many different short barreled uppers as you desire. If you own two ARs, one of which is registered as a SBR, you can only have one short barreled upper in your possession. If you want more than one short barreled upper, simply register your other AR as a SBR. After that, you are back to being allowed as many short barreled uppers as you desire.

As for the pre-ban status, the receiver has a detachable magazine and pistol grip. That means it must have at least one other evil feature to be an AW. If your pre-ban AW is a pre-ban because it has a threaded barrel and flash suppressor, if you create a SBR using it, cut down the barrel, but also thread barrel. That retains the pre-ban configuration.

 

[Fly320s]

Wow!

Ok, I finished reading all 32 pages of the MP5 NFA info from HK Pro and then I read this. I think I strained my brain.

Questions for HKmp5sd:

According to the info I read, the best MP5 (HK94 or 93 or 89 or 91) to buy would be the push pin receiver type that has been registered as a MG (opposed to a registered sear or kit). Does that sound correct? I'm sure this variety is expensive, but are they available?

If I go through with this, I would like to buy a fully complete SMG instead of having one chopped and registered.

Tamara:

I talked to someone (Greg?) at Guncraft but I will probably look around for other help. I've fired their MP5 but otherwise I think they are a little pricey.

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I can fly airplanes, but I have no chance of navigating through all these NFA laws solo.

 

[Fly320s]

Some more things to consider. I came up with these preferences for my SMG:

1. Registered push pin receiver so I can change trigger groups when I want and buy factory new parts as needed.

2. Short barrel with three prong feature for attachments.

Is the above possible, legally? How much?

Now, about AR15 9mm uppers and suppressors and other goodies... I'll save those for later discussions.

 

[444]

Fly, sorry for sidetracking your thread. I hope we all are learing something and I wasn't just a nuisance. Unfortunately I have yet more questions on this subject.

My problem is that I own nine AR15s, so the issue of having extra uppers is in fact an issue.
Are you saying now that I should register the lowers and not the uppers ?
The third evil feature I was thinking about was the collapsable stock, but then none of the features are present on the upper. So, I would have to have a flash suppressor I guress.

 

[Fly320s]

No need to apologize, 444. I have just as many questions as you do I'm sure.

After we clear up this cloudy issue we can tackle suppressors, 9mm uppers on AR15s, and all kinds of other goodies.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

the best MP5 (HK94 or 93 or 89 or 91) to buy would be the push pin receiver type that has been registered as a MG (opposed to a registered sear or kit). Does that sound correct? I'm sure this variety is expensive, but are they available?

That is correct. They also cost more money than a sear gun. If you can find one that you are willing to cough up the money for, do it. The sear guns, as long as they function properly, are still good conversions, they just aren't the absolute best that's available.

The third evil feature I was thinking about was the collapsable stock

That's good enough. As long as you have a minimum of two evil features on the rifle, it is an assault weapon. Just make sure the firearm always has at least some combination of those evil features. Most likely, this is a non-issue. The ban may go away next year, but even if it doesn't, there is virtually no chance anyone will ever bring up the subject in regard to your pre-ban ARs. The whole topic is essentially letters written to Technical Branch and their responses. I haven't heard of any actual cases where ATF has declared an actual firearm contriband because of this.

Are you saying now that I should register the lowers and not the uppers ?

Nine ARs! That's impressive! After pondering your situation, it doesn't really matter. Each AR upper <16" you possess will have to be registered, whether it is the upper by itself or it's registered as one of your existing ARs. If you purchase a registered sear to install in one of your ARs, that AR can have a <16" upper that is not registered as a SBR as long as the sear is installed.

 

[444]

Hold on now. If I register the uppers as SBRs then I can put them on any one of the nine lowers and be legal. I also can't be accused of having an unregistered SBR because only the uppers are registered. Whether or not it is on a rifle it is still a registered SBR. In other words, there is no way to run afoul of the law. But if I registered any less than all the lowers, then it is always possible to run afoul of the law becuase there is always the possiblity that I could put the short upper on an unregistered lower.

Actually, on second look, I think that is what you said. And, I could register four uppers for the same money I was planning on spending anyway.

They autosear was just a hypothetical situation. I have almost no interest in full auto stuff. I would like to have an M16 just because, but would never fire it full auto. I have a subgun now that I think I took out to shoot twice. It isn't my thing. I love accuracy.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

SkaerE I remember seeing the add in SGN, that beltfed is in fact available in 8mm Mauser. I'm not sure if thats the only chambering though.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Actually, on second look, I think that is what you said. And, I could register four uppers for the same money I was planning on spending anyway.

That's what a guy I know did. He has an M16 and a post-ban HBAR AR for competetion. He has 3 uppers for the M16 that are all considered "pre-ban" configured and two are <16". He registered the two as SBRs so that he could not be hit with having an unregistered SBR OR a post-ban assault weapon due to his post-ban AR.

As long as you have 1 of your 9 ARs registered as a SBR for each <16" upper you own, you are safe.

 

[P226]

Ok i am lost here.

I thought you had to register the receiver(on a ar-15 the lower)
as the sbr,not the upper(barrel).I have just sent in the paper work to sbr a pre-ban ar-15(may 22)semi-auto only and was told by the CIII
dealer to give the same serial # that is on the lower,and when i get the form 1 back he will stamp the lower with the name,city,state and sell me the sbr upper(11.5).There are no serial numbers on a ar-15 upper,so how would you register it???
Thanks for any help on this.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The way I understand how the guy I talked to did it, he bought the parts to make the upper except for the barrel (because he had other ARs). He assigned it a serial number and filled out a form 1 stating he was manufacturing an AR SBR. When the form 1 was approved, he bought the barrel and installed it in the upper. Since he couldn't possess all of the parts to make a SBR until the form 1 came back approved, he didn't need the lower during the registration process.

When I "made" my MP5, I already owned the registered full-auto trigger group. I had a Class III manufacturer make the SBR/Suppressed upper from a Hk-94 upper. It was made, registered and transfered to me without having a trigger group (lower) attached.

Both of these occured during the mid-80s. They may no longer allow that, so if that is the route someone wants to take, they should contact ATF Technical Branch first. The individual I talked to made his 2nd SBR upper in '95, so they were still doing it at that point.

 

[P226]

I think this is where things are different.

"When I "made" my MP5, I already owned the registered full-auto trigger group. I had a Class III manufacturer make the SBR/Suppressed upper from a Hk-94 upper. It was made, registered and transfered to me without having a trigger group (lower) attached"

I believe the upper is the registered receive on the HK 90 series.
So you would register the upper "barrel" of the HK94.The trigger
group would then be the registered machine gun or Sear.This would allow you to move the trigger group to a different gun say a Hk53 and still have a legal hk94 sbr.If the HK 53 is also a sbr you could have one full auto trigger group and one semi- trigger group and 2 sbr registered uppers.
On the ar-15 your registered lower is the sbr not the upper.This is were ATF has tried to get people with more then one ar-15 and more then one sbr upper say a 11.5 .223 and a 10" 9mm.Saying you have two sbr's and only one is registered,even if they are used only on the one lower,because it is so easy to change upper's on the ar-15.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

P226,

That is quite possible. After all, these are the guys that say, "once a machinegun, always a machinegun," yet claim a pre-ban AW can lose preban status, yet claim a shotgun receiver that had a shoulder stock attached for 30 seconds can never be made into an AOW.

If I can pry myself away from Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, I think I'll send ATF a letter and ask them about the whole deal and get a written answer. Be nice to know, one way or the other.

 

[Fly320s]

So just what is a person waiting for after sending in the forms and money? Is it a background check or just having the official approval?

 

[P226]

Both
You send in 2 passport photo's and two set's of fingerprints and
then you wait for the form to come back.that's the official approval/background check.If you are doing a short barrel rifle,that's all you need to either cut the barrel or in my case go buy a new shorter upper for my ar-15.