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Question re: purchase of pre-'86 dealer samples

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by horatiodreamt, May 24, 2010.

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  1. horatiodreamt

    horatiodreamt Member

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    Hello. I have a newbie question.

    I've seen NFA dealer websites that offer pre-'86 dealer samples of full-auto firearms. They also have C&R full-auto stuff, too. Can ordinary citizens (i.e. non-NFA dealers) purchase pre-86 full auto weapons, or are these firearms restricted to NFA dealers?

    Info appreciated. Thanks! :)
     
  2. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Pre-86 can be bought by anyone just its quite the process. Post-86 are dealer toys only. Someone else should fill in the rest for me.
     
  3. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Here's a post from UZItalk that explains it sort of clearly:

    Here's another one from Northern Maine Tactical Supply's web site:

    And further commentary from TFL:

    Make sense? It shouldn't.
     
  4. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Only dealers can buy dealer samples, but when you cease being a dealer you can keep pre-86 samples, where you'd have to get rid of post-86 samples.
     
  5. clarence222

    clarence222 Member

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    I think Ian is correct
     
  6. mboylan

    mboylan Member

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    Pre-86 dealer samples can only be purchased by dealers.
     
  7. Corey

    Corey Member

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    Pre-86 dealer samples are foreign made machine guns imported between 1968 and 1986. They may only be purchased by a dealer and do not require the "demo letter" that Post-86 dealer samples require. A dealer may also purchase multiples of the same model with Pre-86 samples unlike Post-86. If the SOT is a sole proprietorship and the dealer gives up his license he can keep the Pre-86 dealer sample but when he goes to sell it or dies then those guns can only transfer to a dealer, not an individual.

    People getting an SOT and then buying a bunch of Pre-86 dealer samples are looked at closely by ATF (you have to be engaging in the business, not enhancing your personal collection) so keep that in mind.
     
  8. Regen

    Regen Member

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    Do Pre-86 dealer samples need to be registered? Or is the reason the BATFE looks closely at people get a SOT and then buying a bunch of Pre-86 dealer samples is because this is a way to get FA without having to pay the premium for a registered machine gun?
     
  9. Regen

    Regen Member

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    Has anyone attempted to register a Post-86 gun and been denied?
     
  10. Corey

    Corey Member

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    ALL machine guns have to be registered. Dealer sample guns (both Pre and Post '86) have the form marked by ATF indicating it is a restricted transfer item. Fully transferrable machine guns are very expensive because there is a limited supply of them and no more can be made. Pre-86 dealer samples are not nearly as much money because while that supply is fixed as well, there is a much smaller pool of potential buyers (only SOT's) that can buy them. Post-86 guns are the lowest priced machine guns. Prices comparable to the same type of gun in semi-auto only in most cases, because these guns are still being manufactured but there is a very limited supply of buyers. Amazing how that whole supply and demand thing works:).

    ATF takes a dim view of getting an SOT simply so that you can buy machine guns without having to pay the prices on fully transferrable guns.

    On your other question, a licensed manufacturer with SOT does not apply to make a machinegun. They make a machinegun and then notify ATF that the gun has been manufactured. That gun is registered as a post-86 gun with restricted transfer. I have heard of people filing a Form 1 to make a machine gun so that when it gets denied they would have standing to file a lawsuit, but I have no idea if anyone has actually filed a suit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  11. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    I think it would take one heck of a legal fund and a lot of time considering the ATF has unlimited funds to fight it (using OUR money). Fortunately most MG owners are affluent so I don't think it would be too diffcult to come up with a decent fund if someone had a strong enough case to go after the constitutionality of the hughes amendment.
     
  12. Regen

    Regen Member

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    Especially, if that person had a Pre-86 MG and tries to register an identical Post-86 MG. I don't think that it would be too difficult to show that the date of registration is arbitrary. Very similar to Heller in terms of the legal issue.
     
  13. Zack

    Zack member

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    So if you had you're own gunshop (class 3 dealer/NFA) you could own NFA weapons/full autos AFTER the date 86? like a m4 made in the 90's?
     
  14. AJAX22

    AJAX22 Member

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    I think you would need to be a manufacturer or dealer with a demo letter to get a mid 90's M4 wouldn't you?

    either way wouldn't you have to be a 02SOT
     
  15. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    If you're a Class 03 taxpayer FFL then yes, you could have such a thing, but first you'll need a letter from a local law enforcement agency saying that they want you to acquire such a thing for testing, instruction, sales, etc. You can't just collect dealer post-samples.

    Now, as an SOT 02 manufacturer, you can MAKE such things, which can be somewhat more flexible, but still not carte blanche to call up H&K or Colt or Izhmash, etc. and order yourself a brand new machine gun.
     
  16. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    So once you have a demo letter and acquire a particular model you can keep it as long as you still have your SOT status (after you are done demonstrating it for the LE agency)? Nice!
     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Yes, from what I understand.

    Now the issue would seem to be (especially considering that some/many chief LEOs won't even sign a Form 1 or Form 4 for folks) convincing the local agency that they really want you do this for them. The purpose of the letter isn't simply a "permission slip" for you to get toys -- it is an official statement from the agency that they are considering purchasing certain weapons for law-enforcement purposes.

    It isn't like most departments are sitting around just wishing someone would demonstrate for them a new M240, or AN-94, or Glock 18, or M2 -- or whatever you have an itch to play with. Unless you're good pals with your local Sheriff and he's a gunnie who will "play along," it isn't terribly likely that your local agency sees a need for anything more than an AR carbine -- which they can get from the federal government very cheaply. Heck, some chiefs don't even want their officers to have those!

    Getting the letter(s) may be more of a stumbling block than getting your license.
     
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