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Question regarding more powerful loadings

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Ughh, Apr 5, 2010.

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  1. Ughh

    Ughh Member

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    Hello I'm fairly new and my first book that I am now starting is Speers Manual no. 14.

    Over time I've read some people say how they have chronod their .45 acp rounds up to 1200 fps. That's pretty fast. This manual I'm reading made no reference to a loading that even reached 1100 fps, and that was under the 'higher power' column (the book has two columns, one for lower power/velocity, and one for higher power/velocity).

    What I'm asking is how did you guys get .45 acp to go higher to 1200 fps? You didn't read it in a manual, I'm assuming. Did you guys just keep throwing in more grams of powder on top of the book's suggestions, then hit the chrono? Silly trial and error??
     
  2. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I don't recall seeing anyone claim 1,200 fps from a .45 Auto but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. If it did happen I'm guessing that was with a 185gr bullet, not a 230gr bullet.

    Buffalo Bore claims only 1,150 fps from their 185gr +P ammo but DoubleTap does claims 1,225 fps from a 5" 1911 with a 185gr JHP bullet.

    Are you sure you didn't read the 1,200 fps claims with a .45 Colt round instead of a .45 Auto round?

    Welcome to reloading BTW, it's very addictive as I'm sure you will find out quite soon!
     
  3. Ughh

    Ughh Member

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    well... I guess my question is: How do you make +P loadings? Or how do you make higher velocity loadings then what the book says.

    Like my book, the same one, says the 9mm loadings only reaching as high as 1,150 fps. How do I go about getting 1300 fps, like the Cor-Bon +P loading, or the Black hills 115gr +P loading.
     
  4. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    It's very hard to duplicate "hot" loads from commercial manufacturers because they have access to powders we don't have access to. We can only use canister grade powders whereas they buy non-canister grade powders in very large lots and custom mix them until they achieve what they are looking for. They can mix the powder so the pressure stays below SAAMI specs while raising the velocities.

    As for loading +P ammo, you can try to use a powder that is slow enough to raise the velocities while staying within SAAMI limits but if the data isn't available you will have to do some trail and error to do it. Most of the data available today will produce pressures which are quite a bit below the SAAMI limits. For example, the pressure limits for a standard .38 Special round are listed as 17,000 psi. Some of the data available will produce pressure of only 15,200 psi so you know you can add more powder safely even though the manual lists the 15,200 psi load as MAX. Same thing with +P loads, most are not even at standard pressure SAAMI limits. I hope I explained that well enough to make sense, if not just ask more questions...
     
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    You don't. You stay within the guidelines. Leave the +P and high velocity loads for the experts with pressure equipment.
     
  6. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I read a few weeks/months ago in one of my gun magazine that 45 colt could be pushed to around 1200-1300 fps in Ruger firearms ONLY.

    The author did not recommend that kind of load and said you have to be VERY VERY careful.

    I took a look at all my reloading books and nowhere I saw a load pushing a 45ACP bullet at that speed.

    as a matter of interest, I was talking to a reloading friend a couple weeks ago about using a 150-160 grains bullet in 45 ACP for increase speed. He said: use a 40 S&W because 45ACP is slow and heavy and was made to be slow and heavy.... hehehehehe :D

    Thank you
     
  7. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Speer manuals have a "Ruger only" section in .45 Colt.

    Yep... :)
     
  8. snuffy

    snuffy Member

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    What we have here is a new reloader thinking that reloading is the path to making a 45 acp into a magnum. It can't be done. A 230 round nose jacketed bullet at 850 fps will out-penetrate just about anything short of a 44 mag. It's just about magic how much it will plow through. I say that to convince you to stop trying to achieve those pie in the sky velocities.

    A few terminology corrections; it's grains, not grams that powder and bullets are measured in. Common use is loads, not loadings.
     
  9. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    Grams instead of grains = KABOOM!!!! :what:

    Thank you
     
  10. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    45ACP Loadings.

    1200fps in a 45acp. :confused: Check Hodgdons data. 155gr lswc bullets, they list 1135fps :uhoh: KABOOM See Kabooms here > http://www.photobucket.com/joe1944usa Many factory advertised velocity is not the true fps if you would run it over a chronograph.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2010
  11. Beelzy

    Beelzy Member

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    Ahhh, Grasshopper.......More power does not a more accurate bullet make.

    Do not cross the threshold between handloading and lunacy.......it's never a good ending.
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    There is no possible way to get 1,200 FPS out of a .45 ACP, even in a revolver, without it blowing up. The case is just not big enough to hold the necessary large dose of slow magnum type powder to do it.

    With the available case capacity, and all the medium burn rate powder that would fit, pressure necessary for 1,200 FPS would be well off the charts.

    If you want 1,200 safely, buy a 10mm pistol.

    rc
     
  13. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,


    Source American handgunner May/June 2010 Page 61:

    .38 special, 150-160 hard cast lead
    Bulleyes 3.0 grains 750 fps
    Unique 4.5 grains 900 fps
    2400 11 grains 1150 fps

    The last load is to be shot ONLY in 357 magnum or .38-44 type revolvers (like S&W model 23).

    Food for tought: With a 160 grains bullet , you can't get to 1200 fps with a "bullet" that can go (i.e.: designed) easilly to 1300 fps in 357 magnums... 45ACP was never designed that way....NEVER.

    Thank you
     
  14. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    Amen to that.

    If you're shooting a 1911 style, it doesn't take long to loosen one up if you shoot +P constantly. Keep it around 850fps with the right powders and let the big 230gr bullet do it's thing and the pistol will last.
    Do not fall into the newbie pitfall and abuse your firearm because you heard someone say that they did it with their gun.



    NCsmitty
     
  15. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    Another idea is Clark Custom's .460 Rowland conversion kit -

    http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

    This requires a replacement barrel, springs, full-length guide rod. The barrel has a comp so the gun will survive more than a few rounds. Clark doesn't recommend it except for a few 1911 frames. Check yours to see if it is listed.

    .460 Rowland brass is also special, as it is stronger and slightly longer (to handle the pressure and so that you can't accidentally chamber one in a standard .45 ACP barrel.)

    Standard dies for .45 ACP can be used to reload .460 Rowland.

    I'm not sure why someone would do this, unless they had such an aversion to .44 Mag revolvers and needed the power / penetration in a 1911 platform.

    However, it is a way to get past 1200 fps.
     
  16. Ughh

    Ughh Member

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    So how does the ammo manufacturers make +P loads then??
     
  17. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    That's how ammo manufactorers make +P loads. It was covered very well in post #4.
     
  18. Ughh

    Ughh Member

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    And we can't make mixtures ourselves? Granted it's dangerous, but the question still stands.
     
  19. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    Manufacturers have test equipments that us consumer level reloaders/handloaders simply do not have access to. Just because we have high dollar consumer grade chronos, scales and calipers, it does not mean all of our equipment is performing at industrial/scientific level of accuracy - there are too many variables that influence our instrumental measurements such as sunlight reflection varying velocity measurements off the chrono.

    I load to 10%, 5%, and sometimes 3% less max published data to give me that margin of safety because I know the consumer level equipment I use have margin of error rate that most of us do not factor into our day-to-day reloading practice. The manufacturers use precise scientific instrumentation that are kept in protected environment/cases and precisely calibrated to ensure accuracy of measurements. They can push the limits of various components used while exactly knowing that they have not exceeded the safety levels - We simply cannot guarantee that with the rough equipment/reloading environment we have.

    For one, we lack the "serious" testing/pressure monitoring equipments and isolated lab/test ranges to carefully tweak the handloading variables using new components. Some of these labs don't even use regular guns for these tests - they use special barreled fixtures. Most of us do not have a lab to examine chemical composition structures of the powders' burn characteristics.

    If you dare start mixing different burn rate powders (which no one on THR would endorse), you are definitely on your own in risking bodily injury and equipment breakage. I have seen too many guns blow up and hands/arms injured. Please don't do it.

    There are plenty of near duplicate factory JHP load recipes available online/forums (and posters came back from the range tests with all of their body parts intact to talk about it) - I would recommend you examine these recipes first.

    Sorry for the long post, but we were all newbies at one time and I will admit I have pushed the limits of my reloads in early days with too many "Boy, that was close - I won't do that again" moments. Start with published load data and enjoy the hobby of reloading, safely. In time, you may find how far you can push the limits without being unsafe.

    IMHO
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  20. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    Yes...this is the problem...we as regular people have no equipment for testing the interior Pressures during interior Ballistic schedules/periods.

    We have no real way to decide the relationship of conjectural pressures or their durations, with the elastic limits of the specific Arm in question...other than to err on the side of remaining well enough below them.

    FPS determined with a Chronograph will not allow us to really tell what the pressures were, even if we thought we knew their status for lesser power published Loads and their lesser FPS or lighter or differing Bullet.


    We can read published data which may include supposed pressures attributed to a given cartridge, with a given volume of a given powder, a given Primer, with a given weight and kind of Bullet, in a given Barrel groove or land diameter and length...and, try and extrapolate from there as for what managing the variables will do...


    But, if upping a charge by very much, and or increasing Bullet kind or weight with an increased charge, extrapolate or predict or guess wrong, and, you may bulge or burst the Barrel, or ruin the whole Gun, and possibly hurt one's self or by-standers.

    Study the variables - and all of this comes fairly clear.


    Calculated risks by degree, are best if the degree in these cases remains modest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  21. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    No! No! No! :banghead:

    Don't even suggest that! Hornady experts spent 3 years to develop Superformance ammunition with a secret powder mix. They have litterally hundreds of hour/men experience with millions in R&D and they were about to get safely "only" 100 fps on rifle ammunition. What more evidences do you want not to do that kind of sutff????? :what:

    Thank you
     
  22. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Free Printed Loading Data Available

    Edit Alliant powder guide no longer lists +P loads, using the +P. In the new guide the "Power Pistol" powder loadings are the old +P loads. Order a free printed copy here. http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog.aspx
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  23. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    Sure you can make mixtures yourself.
    As soon as I get tired of having two good hands, two good arms and two good eyes, I'll give it a whirl. I'm kind of fond of them for now though, so I'll just stick to proven load data from reputable manuals. :banghead:

    You're asking very irresponsible questions on a forum that promotes responsibility and safety. If you're trying to get people to tell you that it's okay to act stupid with guns and loads, you're going to be dissapointed here. And I don't care if speaking that bluntly hurts your feelings. It is flat out STUPID to go mixing powders in your garage, trying to get an extra 200 fps.

    I realize that you're fairly new. I am too in fact. It is great that you're interested in handloading, but if you aren't willing to go by the book, then buy factory ammo and find another hobby. You'll live longer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  24. Sport45

    Sport45 Member

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    I don't think te manufacturers are actually mixing different powders, the mixing is all done before the granules are formed so they have different powder formulas that aren't available in canisters. If you want to buy a rail car full you could probably get some.

    I don't endorse trying what I am about to mention. I don't do this and neither should anyone else!

    If you mix 1 lb of W231 and 1lb of W296 you'll have 2 lb of a 50-50 mixture of the two. but who's to say that 20gr of the stuff contains 10 gr of W231 and 10gr of W296. A true 50-50 mixture of the two may be a sweet load in your gun where a 90% W296 and 10% W231 might leave a bullet stuck in the bore and 90% W231 and 10% W296 might give you a nickname like "stubby".
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  25. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    It may not apply to the .45 ACP, but in many cases with .38 Spec., 9mm, etc, you will find loads listed in reloading manuals that exceed factory +P velocity without reaching +P pressure.

    And it's not the pressure of +P you want to duplicate, it's the extra velocity of +P you are after.
    So if you can get it at standard pressure, so much the better.

    As for your elusive goal of 1,200 FPS in a .45 ACP?

    Nobody is loading a factory loaded +P that fast.
    And no reloader is either, unless they are foolishly doing it at well over safe +P pressures.

    rc
     
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