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Question regarding residency

Discussion in 'Legal' started by zdc1775, Nov 22, 2022.

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  1. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    To those who have continued to participate in this thread, thank you for two things: (1) your civility; and (2) so ably demonstrating why we require citations to authority in Legal.
     
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  2. Archibald Stanton

    Archibald Stanton Member

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    I have found that one of the best ways to fail background check is to have dual residences. I used to have two houses in the same state and I lived part time at each one of them and had mail sent to each one of them and bank accounts at each one and would constantly fail background checks. I finally made sure all of my mail, drivers license, voter registration, everything was only one address and it never happened again.
     
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  3. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Yet your street address is not part of the information given to the FBI NICS during a background check.....only your current state of residence.
    If you keep failing background checks its because your name and descriptive information matches or is similar to that of a prohibited person.
     
  4. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    After all the back & forth here... would someone please
    post/translate/plain English ATF definition of "residency"
     
  5. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Dogtown Tom posted the ATF memo regarding residency in post 2. The plain English version is your residency is where your home is. In having that home you have bills sent to that address and other documents tying you to that home. Having identification documents like a driver's license helps to prove a residency at a specific place, but it is not required to change licenses when moving states nor is having an ID an established residency. Example you can have an ID in New York but if you live in Vermont, it is not required to get a VT license in order to establish residency.
     
  6. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

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    Mr. Havey,

    Here is the full and exact ATF definition of residency (and with it's four examples). Please note that this definition is different from what Mr. Herrwalther has summarized, particularly in the examples of multiple residences.

    (Quoted from 27CFR478.11):

    "State of Residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1.
    A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
    Example 2.
    A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
    Example 3.
    A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
    Example 4.
    A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X"​
     
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  7. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    "Having bills sent to that address" is not mentioned anywhere in anything by ATF.

    For private party transactions betewwn residents of the same state, NO DOCUMENTATION, NO ID, NO NOTHING is required under federal law or ATF regs.

    If the transfer is by a licensed dealer, and the buyer/transferee does not have a government issued photo ID showing his CURRENT residence address, he needs another government issued document showing his name and current address in Alabama. That "government issued document" can be a letter from any city/county/state office, a utility bill from a government entity, a hunting or fishing license, a motor vehicle registration, etc. An apartment lease, bank statement or utility bill from a business are NOT acceptable.

    Again, "where you have bills sent" has nothing to do with anything. Bills MIGHT be from a government entity, but many are not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  8. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Please see above.
    Particularly:
    Please note that this includes transients and other indigent persons, for as long as they intend to reside in a given State.

    How an indigent is meant to identify themselves to an FFL is a separate issue.

    For those States with FOIDs, then, those several States' definitions of residency will apply. But only for those intending to reside in those States.

    This question seems to reoccur due to the fact that the definition is far simpler than all the other aspects of 921 & 922.
     
  9. Archibald Stanton

    Archibald Stanton Member

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    Maybe but after I changed it, it never happened again
     
  10. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Which nicely further illustrates that personal experiences are not necessarily helpful for understanding what the law is.
     
  11. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    When the OP is asking about the FEDERAL requirement of "residency", anything else is just noise.
    When buying a firearm, one darn well better be concerned with the ATF definition. Its the definition tht matters.


    Yet for the purposes of acquiring a firearm they are not. And that's the point of this thread.



    Horsehockey. You keep saying the same things and they are stil wrong. A "rental agreement" is 100% useless as documenting residency for the purposes of acquiring firearms. Further, there is no requirement to "live there in state B for a year...".

    Please read the ATF Ruling I posted above.


    .
    No, it is clearly not. You continue to muddle the legal requirements with personal supposition is regarding residency for the purposes of acquiring firearms.
     
  12. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Thank you sir. :thumbup:
    ...and I take it ATF EX#2 would appear to permit the Well-To-Do-Set to declare residency-du jour
    wherever they happen to set up camp in their multiple homes throughout any given year.
    [?]


    .

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  13. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to be clear, under ATF regulations your State of residence isn't necessarily simply where your home is.

    Under the ATF regulation, your "State of residence" is where (emphasis added):

    So for a State to be your State of residence, two conditions must be satisfied: (1) you must be present in that State; and (2) you must intend to make it your home.

    So the State in which you make your home is not your State of residence unless you're there. This can matter for some folks who could have residences multiple States.
     
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  14. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    All of this discussion reminds me of previous conversations in this subforum focusing on a person living full-time in an RV and having no fixed address. The consensus was reached that such a person might never be able to sufficiently demonstrate residency for the purpose of acquiring a firearm from an FFL unless they plunked themselves in one particular spot like an RV park for an extended period of time.

    I wondered how such a person renews their drivers license when it comes due if they no longer reside at the residence where it was issued. Apparently there are companies that act as “home addresses” for the purposes of forwarding mail, insurance billing, etc.
     
  15. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

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    Pretty much "Yes". So long as you have "homes", as opposed to simply owning real estate, in multiple states, you can change your residency as quickly as you can move between each home. But this does not create "Dual" or "Multiple" residencies, because you are only a resident of one state at a time.

    The personal example that I gave earlier in this thread regarding my move to Washington while still working in California is a good example, and also one that highlights the differences between "residency" as defined by the states, and as defined by the feds.

    In my case the distinction was significant as I purchased a handgun in Washington on my days off. That required that I be a resident of Washington under both federal and Washington state law, which I was on my days off. When I retired, I purchased my service weapon from my agency, on my last working day, which required that I be a resident of California under both federal law, and California state law, which I was during my work days.
     
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  16. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Wouldn't have to be "well-to-do", necessarily. Property ownership has no bearing on the subject.
     
  17. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    This is bordering on fantastical.... Multiple sequential rentals?.... campers?.... Airstream trailers? ... sidewalk cardboard boxes? .....

    . . . . . "Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for
    . . . . . .the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).
    .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. ...........(Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures ...)
    then again....
    . . . . . . . . . . . Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Marmion, Walter Scott)

    The nightmares of a classical education before it became unfashionable
    My head hurts....
     
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  18. Archibald Stanton

    Archibald Stanton Member

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    I am waiting for the discussion to devolve into “let’s say a homeless man wants to buy a gun out of state. Now his cardboard box usually stays in one state but sometimes he puts it in his shopping cart and pushes it across the state line to another state. He has no drivers license or identification of any kind but he can roughly prove that stain on the pavement in his usual spot kind of matches the outline of his box. What is an FFL to do in this situation?”
     
  19. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    On that note, I'm shutting this one down.
     
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