Question: Training with a .22lr pistol

[Rescue]

Training with a .22lr pistol, does it significantly improve your shooting with larger calibers?

What would be a more effective defense training? To shoot 400 rounds of .22lr a week with a pistol you won´t carry, or 40 rounds a week with your primary carry handgun?

Or maybe 200 rounds of .22lr and 20 rounds with the carry gun every week.

I know one of the most important aspects of "tactical" pistolcraft is the recoil handling for the follow up shots, and the .22lr has simply none of that. On the other hand, things like trigger control and instinctive shots could be practiced on a rimfire pistol.

The reason I ask these questions is that, even though I am very interested in SD training with the few pistols I own, I simply cannot afford much ammo. In my particular case, reloading is not an option. I was wondering if training with a .22lr would be an answer to my needs.

I said in another thread that I´ve been thinking about getting a Beretta 87 Cheetah. People have said good things about it, but shooting for fun is not exactly my goal. I am a decent shot, but there is surely room for improvement. The Cheetah is an expensive pistol for a .22lr, but if I was certain that training with it would translate into a significant improvement in my shooting with larger calibers, I would happily depart with my hard earned money.

I´d also like to say that, even though I am a newbie around here, I have seen the wealth of knowledge that can be found within THR, and I feel privileged to learn from your experience.

 

[Rescue]

I feel more context is necessary...

I live in Brazil, and we have the vast amount of 1 ammunition manufacturer: CBC/Magtech. Ammo importation is severely restricted. I think you all know where I am getting at...

Around here, the cheapest, legally obtained, .40sw is on sale for USD$200.00 a box of 100 rounds.

I am not joking, amigos.

Anyway, back to the original questions.

 

[BullfrogKen]

If all you can afford to practice with is .22 ammo, then that's what you practice with.

Or, you might consider buying a top end Airsoft gun that replicates your carry gun. Action pistol competitiors in countries like Japan do exactly this. You won't get all the benefits you'll see shooting your carry gun with either of these options, but you'll learn trigger control, learn how to see what you need to see to make the shot, and other related skills not dependant to a specific handgun.

 

[LanEvo`]

In my experience, the guys who shoot lots of .22LR tend to have better trigger control and are far less prone to flinching. In my book, that's a very good thing.

 

[Katana8869]

I shoot alot, but no matter which of my defensive guns I take to the range on any given trip, I also take my .22 Ruger with me and put 50-100 rounds through it every time I go.

I put the Ruger through all the self defense drills that I do with my other guns. It's all about trigger time IMHO. The more, the better. Plus I shoot some damn impressive double taps with that Ruger.

 

[Locosupremo]

.22 training is the way to go

My CCW is a Kimber Ultra Carry 45 ACP. I also bought a Kimber 22 target, which is in the same 1911 configure. I shoot 80% of my training rounds with the .22 and 20% 45. The .22 allows me to practice draw/presentation, site alingment & trigger pull with live ammo at a reasonable cost. Granted, the recoil is not the same, but the "muscle memory" and repetition allowed with the .22 is an acceptable trade off. Several highly ranked <local> IDPA shooters do the same at my range. My scores with the 45 have gone up noticeably since I got the .22 due to the much greater ability to train.

 

[Rescue]

If all you can afford to practice with is .22 ammo, then that's what you practice with.

I can get some practice with the proper calibers, it is just that I can practice so much more with .22 ammo.

On the other hand, more rounds of .22lr fired means less rounds fired with the primary carry gun. I am not sure this compromise is worth it, training wise.

Or, you might consider buying a top end Airsoft gun that replicates your carry gun.

I have thought about Airsofts, I even tried to like them. But I simply can´t stand them.

In my experience, the guys who shoot lots of .22LR tend to have better trigger control and are far less prone to flinching.

The lack of flinching makes sense, since if you train a lot with a rimfire, the body might just stop expecting any recoil.

My scores with the 45 have gone up noticeably since I got the .22 due to the much greater ability to train.

That is interesting to hear. People I have discussed this with have invariably told me that 20 rounds with your carry gun would be a more valuable practice than 200 rounds with a pistol you will never use for SD. I figured someone out there was bound to have a different opinion.

 

[Headless]

The .22 is extremely useful as a training tool. Shooting well is not about controlling recoil until after the round has left the barrel. Learning to control your trigger properly and how to quickly and accurately shoot with iron sights count a heck of a lot more than learning to deal with quick follow-up shots. If you get trigger control and sight alignment mastered with a .22LR, you can spend your time with larger caliber rounds doing something useful - learning specifically how to handle the recoil for follow-up shots without having to worry about learning trigger control and sight alignment at the same time. Compartmentalize and enjoy the benefits .22LR has to offer. I would shoot 200 .22LR any day over only 20 rounds with my carry gun, though only to an extent - you gotta shoot your carry gun enough to be comfortable with it, especially if it functions significantly differently than your .22LR.

 

[Trope]

I totally agree with Headless.

On a typical range trip, I'll shoot 200-300 rounds of .22 and maybe 150-200 rounds of 9mm. I feel very strongly that the .22 has greatly improved my pistol shooting overall. Not only has it helped me to not flinch, but it means that I get more practice with trigger control due to the lower cost ammo.

Now if only my Buckmark was as consistent as my Glock...

 

[Headless]

To add to what Trope said, I want to say that the .22 shooting i've done has trained my eyes so well that i can see the rounds going downrange every shot now... .38's are difficult because of the 642's muzzle blast, but i can see 9mm and .40cal rounds going downrange every time, the whole way in flight until they hit the target, and if i'm firing beyond 20 yards i can see the .22's too. I see the muzzle flash every time the gun goes off, and it helps IMMENSELY with follow up shots having a constant visual contact with the target and gun.

Being able to control the trigger is a huge part of being able to nail what you're aiming at, and with so little recoil you can really see your mistakes easily. My buckmark is far more accurate than my 9mm, so it is nice to shoot as it's rewarding to knock things around. I fire ~500-1000 .22's each time i go out - if you've got a buckmark, you need to get one of the ultimate cliploaders. Load a mag in 2 seconds flat . Tennis balls are totally doomed.
http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/ultimatecliploader.htm

After i've shot a few rounds from the .22 i notice it's considerably easier to hit things with my 9mm and .40 especially.
The larger calibers need training too, though - mainly to get your grip right so the gun naturally aims well and recovers consistently from recoil from what i've seen..and because i can hold the buckmark completely differently than the other guns because of the lack of recoil, it's important to get comfortable with holding the other guns.

 

[PzGren]

Ever since I have to buy my own ammo, the .22 is a viable option. I have shot way over 100,000 centerfire handgun cartridges but a .22 is almost always in my range bag.

I just enjoy shooting.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

for cheap practice, .22 lr is perfect. It may not teach you to deal with recoil....but it will help you practice holding steady on target and trigger control. It's definitely a good start

 

[Caimlas]

I'm poor, and I basically shoot only .22LR these days through a Walther P22 for the reasons you mention. About 400 rounds a week. In the past several months, my group size at 25' went from 8" non-groups (more like patterns ) to 2" holes with the .22, so there's definitely an improvement. I've also seen a marked improvement when I pick up pretty much any other handgun, whether it's mine or someone else's. My groups are much tighter than they ever used to be (when I only shot centerfire pistol about 50 - 100 rounds a month or less, due to cost), and I'm able to shoot more quickly, more accurately.

HOWEVER: speaking from personal experience, the biggest setback I've noticed when shooting my carry pistol (Taurus PT111 Pro) is that the pistol sits slightly differently in my hand; my body is tuned and expecting the .22LR Walter P22 when I shoot. My "muscle memory" is calibrated for the .22 simply due to the comparatively massive number of shots fired from a smaller calibered pistol with a different overall feel. I don't expect the recoil of the other handguns, and therefore for the first 40 or so rounds of the centerfire, the recoil seems quite 'severe' in comparison. The recoil isn't the sole "problem", either: the feel of the trigger, the way the pistol points naturally (due to how it sits in the hand), and the pistol's weight all enter into the equation.

What I personally intend to do is get a CZ75 and make it my primary pistol, and then get a Kadet .22LR upper assembly and use that for my primary target practice. That way the platform is as identical as possible, and the recoil is the only difference (I'd say it's about half of the "problem").

So, that's what I'd so, as well as put a magazine or so of centerfire down range with each practice session to try and re-acclimate yourself to the centerfire's recoil. 200 .22LR to 20 centerfire seems like a good ratio to me, but 400 to 20 might also be just as good (I'm currently shooting more like 2500 .22LR to 50 centerfire, and it messes with me).


EDIT to add: On another note, since shooting so much .22LR, I've become quite proficient with rapid point shooting with it. I'm no expert or anything, but I can consistently (and rapidly) hit multiple 20 oz. soda bottles at 25 feet with the P22 now - within an inch or two to the side of the bottle 9 times out of 10, and at least half of those making contact with the bottle, with shooting as fast as you see in the movies.

 

[22-rimfire]

As mentioned, the 22 will only take you so far. More than likely the trigger and overall feel of the carry weapon are different from your 22 even if the carry gun is a revolver. Hence you will need to be pretty comfortable with the carry piece.

You could practive things like reloading and pointing (sight alignment) without actually shooting but it's not very fullfilling. I suppose if you had a laser sight, you could probably use it as sort of dry firing practice to confirm sight alignment.

Personally you have to decide if your practice is tactical and includes quick reloading, stance, moving between shots such as in a police tactical range, and what distance you are trying to be effective hitting your target. I don't find it particularily difficult to hit the target at 10 yds with any normal handgun and that is about all I need for self defense. Everything else to me is slow fire and essentially careful aiming unless I'm shooting quickly for fun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I know one of the most important aspects of "tactical" pistolcraft is the recoil handling for the follow up shots, and the .22lr has simply none of that.

The key to recoil handling is to learn to track the front sight through the recoil cycle. That's easier to learn with a .22, and once learned it transfers easily to larger calibers.

My carry gun is a M1911 (in this case a Kimber Classic). I handload and cast my own bullets from wheelweights (which I get free.) But I shoot a lot more .22 through my M1927 Argentine (an almost identical gun) with a Colt Service Ace conversion kit.

 

[sacp81170a]

I have an Advantage Arms .22 adapter that fits either my Glock 17 or 22's frame. It's great. I get lots more trigger time for less money, I have the same feel, and it fits the same holster I use for carry. I can get lots of one, two and three shot drills and I can see my mistakes far more easily. Regular practice with .22's will help just about anyone, plus it's nice to have the .22 to train new shooters. A very good thing.

 

[ACP]

My centerfire pistol shooting -- .38 and .45-- improved dramticially a few weeks after I purchased my first .22 pistol, a Ruger Mk III.

Sight alignment and trigger control were the magic for me. Much easier to master with a .22 in terms of price and recoil.

I shoot an avg. 50 rounds (pistol) of .22 LR a week. I shoot 3 magazines of 45ACP (24 rounds) and 3 cylinders of .38 Spl. (15 rounds) once a week. That seems to keep me in good form.

 

[ARGarrison]

A .22 LR is a fine training tool and a great small game getter to boot. Like many have said before, trigger control and sight alignment are key to good marksmanship. I think a .22 is the way to go.

 

[Rescue]

Thanks for the replies everybody. After reading your posts I have decided I´m gonna go for a rimfire pistol.

I am still deciding which one to get. I narrowed it down to two models: Beretta Cheetah 87 and Kimber Rimfire Target. Following the advice of Caimlas and Headless, I tried to restrict my choices to models that are closer in design to the pistols I own.

The Cheetah is somewhat similar in design to the PT100, which I have. I only read good things about it, and that it is reliable with many types of ammo. I plan on using standard velocity.

The Kimber dedicated Rimfire is more expensive. As you all know, it tries to replicate the omnipresent 1911. It weights 18 ounces loaded and I read it feels like a toy gun. I am not worried about it though, what worries me is that Kimber´s website says the Rimfire Target is designed for high velocity ammo. The Kimber seems like the best choice for training, but I am buying without seeing one in person, I am worried I am gonna get a finicky pistol.

So...

Kimber Rimfire:
+ Replicates the ubiquitous 1911
- Finicky on ammo?
- It is an "aluminum" gun
- Too expensive

Cheetah:
+ Reliable with many types of ammo.
+ Resembles the PT100, which I have

 

[Rescue]

I think I am going for the Cheetah.

 

[sevesteen]

Take a look at the Ruger 22/45 as well--Designed to roughly mimic the feel of a 1911, with controls in roughly the same places. Mine isn't fussy about ammo--works fine with the cheap 550 packs from Walmart. I have had several fail to fires, but all from the same box of ammo.

 

[PzGren]

The Cheetah is a nice gun but Bersa also makes the Firestorm in .22 that enjoys a great reputation while being quite inexpensive.

http://www.firestorm-sgs.com/