cdb1
Member
I have numerous rifles at my disposal and choose to use a 30-30 for hog hunting.
Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.
- Thread starter Balrog
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I have numerous rifles at my disposal and choose to use a 30-30 for hog hunting.
Creature
Member
Jeff Cooper, when he came up with the scout rifle concept, had obviously forgotten that the 30-30 Win94 existed.
kBob
Member
Creature,
Actually no he had not, it was one of the things that gave him the idea for it.
He did want a bit more power. He wanted the ability to reload with strippers or single rounds at his option. Besides the K98 with Zf-41 scope the '94 was one of the guns first seen in the field with forward optics, both pistol scopes and the earliest of the successful red dots mounted over where the rear sights normally were. His ghost ring sight stuff came from the practice of many hunters that favored the '94 using a receiver peep and removing the aperature to leave the mounting hole which gave them a large aperature with relatively thin margins......a ghost ring sight.
A lot of folks do not like the way the lever guns work from the prone.
BTW he encouraged folks that lived in areas where military style rifles like the AR and AK series and semi auto actions on rifles were banned to go with pistol caliber lever guns such as the Winchester 92 and clones and the Marlin, or the '94 and 336 in .30-30 if possible with ghost ring sights. At one point he referred to these as "Boston Specials" and such. He put together occasional carbine class on managing these and had folks take other rifle courses with those as well as having '94s show up in scout rifle classes.
I rather imagine he would have joined the crowd around here that bad mouths the modern Henry rifles for there lack of a loading gate, but honestly I can not speak for him. He might have liked the ability of load many at once with feed tubes a'la blakeshee quick loader enough to offset the lack of a loading gate.
Not trying to be mean or non high road, but your comment is an example of what my post about people thinking they know what Cooper was thinking is all about.
-kBob
Actually no he had not, it was one of the things that gave him the idea for it.
He did want a bit more power. He wanted the ability to reload with strippers or single rounds at his option. Besides the K98 with Zf-41 scope the '94 was one of the guns first seen in the field with forward optics, both pistol scopes and the earliest of the successful red dots mounted over where the rear sights normally were. His ghost ring sight stuff came from the practice of many hunters that favored the '94 using a receiver peep and removing the aperature to leave the mounting hole which gave them a large aperature with relatively thin margins......a ghost ring sight.
A lot of folks do not like the way the lever guns work from the prone.
BTW he encouraged folks that lived in areas where military style rifles like the AR and AK series and semi auto actions on rifles were banned to go with pistol caliber lever guns such as the Winchester 92 and clones and the Marlin, or the '94 and 336 in .30-30 if possible with ghost ring sights. At one point he referred to these as "Boston Specials" and such. He put together occasional carbine class on managing these and had folks take other rifle courses with those as well as having '94s show up in scout rifle classes.
I rather imagine he would have joined the crowd around here that bad mouths the modern Henry rifles for there lack of a loading gate, but honestly I can not speak for him. He might have liked the ability of load many at once with feed tubes a'la blakeshee quick loader enough to offset the lack of a loading gate.
Not trying to be mean or non high road, but your comment is an example of what my post about people thinking they know what Cooper was thinking is all about.
-kBob
Newtosavage
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Same here. Still hard to beat a lever action 30-30 for quick moving critters that average about 150 lbs. That's what the gun was designed for.
Newtosavage
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Or lets you top off an magazine, without removing it.
& gives you easy access to the receiver, that you'll be grateful for, later or sooner. It also facilitates keeping both eyes open and having a good field of view around the target. And it's quick, no getting "lost in the scope". It's not without trade offs though. Having the sun at your back (where you want it) sucks.................especially if you don't have a good hat.
It also allows you to carry the rifle by the action/balance point, which is a much less tiring way of carrying a rifle AND having it ready to go. This is a large part why the Win 94 lever gun is still so coveted - because of it's ease of carry when you wrap your hand around that receiver.
kBob
Member
Newt O'Savage,
My 94 unfortunately has a traditional scope mounted on a side mount that sort of messes with that feature. I keep meaning to pull that old 4X Swift off the rifle but that Round Tuit continues to be evasive.
As a teen one of my buddies had a little Marlin in 25-36 Marlin that had its normal buck horn sights, a fully adjustable folding tang sight, and a straight tubed scope side mounted in recoil mounts with external adjustment. Still I seem to recall most wear was right where the receiver and front wood came together. Having to re seat the scope after each shot, setting its stud in a V notch in the front ring was sort of neat actually.
-kBob
My 94 unfortunately has a traditional scope mounted on a side mount that sort of messes with that feature. I keep meaning to pull that old 4X Swift off the rifle but that Round Tuit continues to be evasive.
As a teen one of my buddies had a little Marlin in 25-36 Marlin that had its normal buck horn sights, a fully adjustable folding tang sight, and a straight tubed scope side mounted in recoil mounts with external adjustment. Still I seem to recall most wear was right where the receiver and front wood came together. Having to re seat the scope after each shot, setting its stud in a V notch in the front ring was sort of neat actually.
-kBob
And part of how the "scout" discussions seem to go in circles. Many posts about what people think they are about, but often have little or no correct information about the actual concept or origin of it. Reading about the idea from Coopers writings, or people that were at the scout conferences, or part of the early development or early users, and reading of what so many people think they are, they seem like totally different concepts.
That is *one* advantage of the forward mounted scope. It is not the only advantage, or even one of the main advantages.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Reviewing all this and thinking about it some: Seems to me that one should read Cooper's thoughts on the "why" of the scout rifle, and compare those to one's own needs and uses. If they're different, forget about the Scout. "Different" does not equal either "stupid" or "bad". E.g., I don't tote a bull-barreled .22 when I squirrel hunt. Or use a featherweight hunting rifle in long-range competition.
I guess the "why" is the reason the Scout has never been a great commercial success. There are not too many who would use it for its intended purpose.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
True Scout Rifles? I'd agree.
Rifles with the name Scout in them? I'd think sales have taken off pretty well considering the niche of the gun.
kBob
Member
Art E,
That closing sentence deserves a rim shot....."Bah-Dum-Dump!"
Not every instrument in the band does the same thing!
-kBob
That closing sentence deserves a rim shot....."Bah-Dum-Dump!"
Not every instrument in the band does the same thing!
-kBob
kBob
Member
Chicharrones,
First ... are you dry and OK?
That bottom rifle in Post #21......is that your self shortened .22 Mag with the butt trap? How is that working out for you?
Nice looking, whatever it is.
-kBob
First ... are you dry and OK?
That bottom rifle in Post #21......is that your self shortened .22 Mag with the butt trap? How is that working out for you?
Nice looking, whatever it is.
-kBob
Kendal Black
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On the question of what was or wasn't Cooper's thinking about the scout idea, we can do a site search on the Commentaries to see where he mentioned the scout. That gives us something more useful than the bare formal definition of lengths and weights and so forth. It gives us a look at the whys and wherefores he had in mind in this project. It also shows us his periodic frustration with people not quite grasping what he meant.
site:myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/ scout
site:myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/ scout
Macchina
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- 998
Butt trap???
Wisco
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That rifle to me is what a "scout" rifle should be, but lighter if possible - Kevlar stock, lightweight scope, etc. Others disagree, and that's fine if they need detachable mags and stripper clips.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
kBob! Luckily, the bayou that is 1/4 mile from my house didn't come out of its banks and we only got street flooding. The house and cars stayed dry. I even went back to work on Wednesday, but many places were still shut down or not reachable with my vehicles. We were truly lucky.
The bottom rifle in post 21 is indeed the butt trap rifle.
It still shoots great, but I'd like to put a Burris on it when funds permit. Maybe when the wife gets a job or the kids finish college . . . ?
chicharrones
needs more ammo
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Jason_W
Member
I'm not one to get hung up on labels or mired down in minutiae, but a number of "scout" features appeal to me.
I like the idea of a rifle that is compact enough to be at home in the thick stuff, but has the power and trajectory to take game across a clearcut or meadow as well.
Backup sights not only allow a plan B if I fall onto my scope (and if you've never taken a dive while hunting, you probably haven't been in the woods much)but allow me to shoot two kinds of ammo through the rifle. One load sighted for the sights, another sighted for the scope that is mounted via QD rings.
The 10 round mag could provide fun at the range but be swapped out for a 5 round for snag free brush hunting.
I'm not soldier in a war zone, and I'm so confident that the US won't turn into a post-apocalyptic war zone any time soon that the requirements for that scenario are of no concern to me.
I like the idea of a rifle that is compact enough to be at home in the thick stuff, but has the power and trajectory to take game across a clearcut or meadow as well.
Backup sights not only allow a plan B if I fall onto my scope (and if you've never taken a dive while hunting, you probably haven't been in the woods much)but allow me to shoot two kinds of ammo through the rifle. One load sighted for the sights, another sighted for the scope that is mounted via QD rings.
The 10 round mag could provide fun at the range but be swapped out for a 5 round for snag free brush hunting.
I'm not soldier in a war zone, and I'm so confident that the US won't turn into a post-apocalyptic war zone any time soon that the requirements for that scenario are of no concern to me.
I would suggest you buy one now, because in a few years everyone who wants one will have bought one, shot it, traded it for something else, moved on, and it will be out of the catalogues.
The scout is a neat idea for fantasy discussion, but I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where I would be so clueless as to the type of firearm that I would need that I would select a general all purpose scout rifle.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Plainsman
Member
What rifle is your light Scout? Thx!
cdb1
Member
A few years ago I made a documentary I hoped PBS would pick up but alas and alack they declined. It was titled: "The Phillips screwdriver, a tool for our time". It is my fervent hope the scout rifle concept fares better.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
It's a Zastava MP22 in .22 WMR that I modified from original a few years ago. Post 69 shows a quick pictorial transformation.
The MP22 is the same as a Charles Daly rimfire, a Remington Model 5, or a Zastava CZ99 rifle. Minor differences or import marks may be found on the guns. My daughter has a Remington Model 5 version in .22LR.
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/smallbore-rifle-mp-22
http://www.cabelas.com/product/CENTURY-CZ-RIFLES/2044469.uts
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