Quick Question: why is there a belt on Belted magnum

[Jim Watson]

The main reason British Magnum hunting cartridges were more sedate back in the day is that they were loaded with cordite, and they were used in the hottest places in Africa, which were basically the hottest places on earth. The ammo was temperature sensitive and anybody shooting at something that bites darned well wanted to ensure that the empty could be ejected, and a new round chambered without any hitches. It is the same reason that the British liked those long sloping shoulders.

those imperialist British thought of everything. I wish the British and Japanese would have done more firearms and cartridge development. Just imagine the ideas they would have produced.

The British did a lot of development.
They not only used voluminous cartridges to keep pressures down and make opening and extraction from singles and doubles easier they also had different loads. You could get "tropical" ammunition loaded lighter than the stuff made for temperate climes. That depended on you staying in one zone, your double rifle and/or your express sights were regulated for one or the other.
Jeffrey were innovators. They had the biggest brass per calibre, with thicker rims for better extraction than cases based on black powder rounds, and they had the most different loads to suit the climate.

In firearms, one double rifle or shotgun looks a lot like the next but get inside and you see a wide variety of action designs.

 

[Mark_Mark]

The British did a lot of development.
They not only used voluminous cartridges to keep pressures down and make opening and extraction from singles and doubles easier they also had different loads. You could get "tropical" ammunition loaded lighter than the stuff made for temperate climes. That depended on you staying in one zone, your double rifle and/or your express sights were regulated for one or the other.
Jeffrey were innovators. They had the biggest brass per calibre, with thicker rims for better extraction than cases based on black powder rounds, and they had the most different loads to suit the climate.

In firearms, one double rifle or shotgun looks a lot like the next but get inside and you see a wide variety of action designs.

If I had a double rifle, I would sell it after a few years of showing it off at the bbq. Yes I would wear it!

 

[redcon1]

Wow. Was the belt was added for head spacing reasons? No!

The belt was added to reinforce the base of the case which might not be sufficiently supported due to manufacturing tolerances and bolt design variations. (A good idea in theory)

One additional feature was to change head spacing for magnum calibers to the front of the belt. (A bad idea in theory)

Do modern guns need a belt for “magnum” calibers. Absolutely not.

Did guns with 1950’s manufacturing techniques need the belt? Debatable.
Was it a marketing ploy to add the belt? Debatable.

Your post sent me on a pretty good internet search. I only know what I've read or been told and I remember reading something about machining tolerances being looser back in the day. The general consensus seems to be that the belted cases were used to accommodate headspacing on tapered cases which were pretty typical a hundred plus years ago for a number of reasons including manufacturing convenience in an era where machining tolerances were not as tight as they later evolved to become. I have read many accountings that suggest the belt was, in later years, added only as a marketing ploy-because belted=magnum in everyone's minds. It is my opinion that as technology has improved, the belt is not needed and not desirable. The .338 Lapua Magnum is not belted. Belt clearly no longer equals Magnum. So why have them anymore? Especially when they can actually increase the difficulty of reloading? Is there one good reason to have a belt around a cartridge in 2022? I don't think so so I will seize any opportunity to speak poorly of this obsolete, unnecessary and detrimental vestigial feature.

https://www.cartridgecollector.net/400375-belted-nitro-express-hh

 

[Jim Watson]

If I had a double rifle, I would sell it after a few years of showing it off at the bbq. Yes I would wear it!

A friend has a .450 BPE that he had a lot of fun with in early days, but the novelty has worn off and it doesn't get out much now.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Your post sent me on a pretty good internet search. I only know what I've read or been told and I remember reading something about machining tolerances being looser back in the day. The general consensus seems to be that the belted cases were used to accommodate headspacing on tapered cases which were pretty typical a hundred plus years ago for a number of reasons including manufacturing convenience in an era where machining tolerances were not as tight as they later evolved to become. I have read many accountings that suggest the belt was, in later years, added only as a marketing ploy-because belted=magnum in everyone's minds. It is my opinion that as technology has improved, the belt is not needed and not desirable. The .338 Lapua Magnum is not belted. Belt clearly no longer equals Magnum. So why have them anymore? Especially when they can actually increase the difficulty of reloading? Is there one good reason to have a belt around a cartridge in 2022? I don't think so so I will seize any opportunity to speak poorly of this obsolete, unnecessary and detrimental vestigial feature.
View attachment 1055197
https://www.cartridgecollector.net/400375-belted-nitro-express-hh

.50 BMG does not have a belt

 

[redcon1]

.50 BMG does not have a belt

That's funny that you would mention that as I actually said the exact same thing word for word in this post but then deleted it because I just wanted to focus on the "magnum" cartridge designations and felt strictly focusing on the .338 Lapua "Magnum" better served my point.

 

[Mark_Mark]

That's funny that you would mention that as I actually said the exact same thing word for word in this post but then deleted it because I just wanted to focus on the "magnum" cartridge designations and felt strictly focusing on the .338 Lapua "Magnum" better served my point.

my favorite belted Mag is 7STW! I need to check my chambers on my beautiful #1 to see if it head space on the belt

 

[redcon1]

my favorite belted Mag is 7STW! I need to check my chambers on my beautiful #1 to see if it head space on the belt

I had high hopes for the 300 RUM but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it really developed much commercial success. Now I have high hopes that the 30 Nosler will enjoy a greater commercial success than its parent cartridge and we'll finally have a .308 magnum cartridge that surpasses the 300 Winchester Magnum and Weatherby magnum just enough to make it desirable but maybe not so much as to cause significantly more throat erosion.

 

[Jim Watson]

.50 BMG does not have a belt

.55 Boys does.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I had high hopes for the 300 RUM but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it really developed much commercial success. Now I have high hopes that the 30 Nosler will enjoy a greater commercial success than its parent cartridge and we'll finally have a .308 magnum cartridge that surpasses the 300 Winchester Magnum and Weatherby magnum just enough to make it desirable but maybe not so much as to cause significantly more throat erosion.

when I was younger I wanted the biggest and badest Mag, Now I would like a .243 or a 6mm. Yes, boring and lame but I don’t need a Elephant gun

 

[redcon1]

.55 Boys does.

14.5×114mm doesn't. 24,520 ft lbs of energy seems magnumish.

 

[redcon1]

when I was younger I wanted the biggest and badest Mag, Now I would like a .243 or a 6mm. Yes, boring and lame but I don’t need a Elephant gun

I want them all but I'm not rich so... But I would also like a nice .243 for sure and have found myself thinking about one here recently. It's a potent little cartridge capable of extreme accuracy with its high BC projectiles.
My other issue with adding new cartridges to my collection is that I only have so much room to store components. It's already pretty much crazy cat lady horder level in the reloading room(s). If I'm going to support a new cartridge, that cartridge needs to be well thought out. For example, I like .300 Blackout because I can just form brass out of 5.56 which I have a lot of and use .308 projectiles which I also have a lot of. 30 Nosler would, similarly, use the same .308 bullets that I use for 300 blackout subsonics and it would use them to great effect. I definitely need to get that nasty 300 winchester belted magnum barrel off my Sendero and replace it with a 30 Nosler. Then I don't foresee adding any new cartridges to the collection any time soon.

 

[Archie]

The 'belt' was intended to insure the cartridge head - especially the primer - would be solid up against the breech face. We can argue the whys and functions for many moons but that's the basic story.

Later it became a status symbol. A belted cartridge was cooler, because it was belted.

I have no use for a belted cartridge. I revolt against the 'cool' factor and see the belt as merely a think rim with an extraction groove cut into it. Low ago, rimmed cases were replaced with 'rimless' cases for better feeding and less chance of stoppages in the magazine. Tolerances have been tightened with technology and a belt is obsolete in reality. Much as Legionaire said, I prefer the .375 Ruger case.
If you like the belted cases, feel free.

There is a problem getting rid of belted cases; too many to simply move on the modern world. As one instance, I have a .458 Winchester Magnum (long story, I got it in a three way trade.) I'm not going to have this rebarreled and chambered to an as yet undesigned cartridge and then custom make cases until some manufacturer sees fit. I suppose I could get custom dies somewhere and neck up .375 Ruger cases.

Naw, too much work.

 

[HowieG]

That was true of all the proprietary British big game cartridges. The British were smart to keep their cartridges at 40 kpsia. Derived from British proof standards, the .470 Nitro Express (NE) has a maximum average pressure (MAP) assignment on SAAMI equipment of only 41,000 psi. American's wanted horsepower, and to get the performance they want, the .458 Win. Mag. has a MAP of 60,000 psi. I have read on other forums the propensity of factory 458 Win Mag cartridges to stick during African hunts. Winchester wanted to shoe horn a big bore, high performance cartridge in a 30-06 action, and the only way to get the velocities they wanted, was to go high pressure. The higher the pressure, the less margin for error. The British custom of increasing the cartridge capacity, to get those velocities at low pressure, is simply the better way to go.

I also believe there can be another cause for extraction difficulties, and that is the shooting community thinks ammunition/gunpowder is immortal, unchanging, pristine throughout eternity. Gunpowder is not immortal, pristine, unchanging, gunpowder pressures rise with age, and the stuff has an unpredictable shelf life. Eley guarantees function of their match rimfire for 10 years, and match winning capability for around five. They don't guarantee function for 20 years, or 40 years, or longer. Combined with the propensity of shooters to hoard expensive ammunition for decades, that may be the reason for the "caking" of power in 458 Win Mag cartridges in this thread:

Why I No Longer Defend The .458 Winchester Magnum
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/why-i-no-longer-defend-the-458-winchester-magnum.17615/

I think what they are seeing is evidence of powder deterioration, such as these individuals experienced:

View attachment 1055176

old IMR powder, some of it turned "gummy"

View attachment 1055177
View attachment 1055178
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An individual who buys African cartridges, at $70.00 a box of 20, is unlikely to shoot all of it up busting cans. And then because shooters have been taught that gunpowder lasts forever, unfired rounds will sit around for decades. I think it highly probable some decades old, high pressure American ammunition made its way to Africa, and given that the cartridge originally was a 60+ kpsia round, now the deterioration, and heat, rounds could be producing 90 kpsia in the field. Maybe even more!

Regardless of how it is defended, there is no up side to ignorance.

No, there is no upside. The real downside though, is that ignorance keeps you from knowing that you are ignorant. Through much education and research, I have finally figured out that I still don't know crap.

 

[Slamfire]

No, there is no upside. The real downside though, is that ignorance keeps you from knowing that you are ignorant. Through much education and research, I have finally figured out that I still don't know crap.

Outstanding! The older I get, the less certain I am of "what I know", and whether I really know anything at all!

This is an excellent article by David Dunning. You might have heard of the Kruger Dunning effect, (I can say I have lived the Kurger Dunning effect!), and this article is by Mr Dunning himself. And, who has not been the Confident Idiot?

We Are All Confident Idiots

https://psmag.com/social-justice/confident-idiots-92793

The trouble with ignorance is that it feels so much like expertise. A leading researcher on the psychology of human wrongness sets us straight.

 

[HowieG]

Outstanding! The older I get, the less certain I am of "what I know", and whether I really know anything at all!

This is an excellent article by David Dunning. You might have heard of the Kruger Dunning effect, (I can say I have lived the Kurger Dunning effect!), and this article is by Mr Dunning himself. And, who has not been the Confident Idiot?

We Are All Confident Idiots

https://psmag.com/social-justice/confident-idiots-92793

The trouble with ignorance is that it feels so much like expertise. A leading researcher on the psychology of human wrongness sets us straight.

I would pay more attention except Dunning-Kruger are more than likely victims of cognitive bias.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I’m glade Belted still exists! We don’t need to destroy all out statue from the pass

I’m also glade there is options!

 

[Legionnaire]

@Slamfire, thanks for the link. Great read.

 

[Slamfire]

@Slamfire, thanks for the link. Great read.

It's like looking in the mirror. Remember all the times your friends said you were an idiot? For me, I think they might have been right more often than they were wrong.....

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m glade

 

[Mark_Mark]

View attachment 1055298

NICE!

 

[HowieG]

View attachment 1055298

Anything you can do to create a positive ATMOSPHERE works for me.

 

[sugarmaker]

Marketing. Consumers identified belt with magnum, No belt, no magnum. Beltless magnum was a non starter for about 40 years until the 90s or so. The original purpose, the head spacing on the shallow shoulder H and H, has been irrelevant on the vast majority of belted magnums.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Marketing. Consumers identified belt with magnum, No belt, no magnum. Beltless magnum was a non starter for about 40 years. The original purpose, the head spacing on the shallow shoulder H and H, has been irrelevant on the vast majority of belted magnums.

it worked back then for head space…. so why fix not broken???

I personally never seen a rim case I didn’t like

 

[HowieG]

Marketing. Consumers identified belt with magnum, No belt, no magnum. Beltless magnum was a non starter for about 40 years. The original purpose, the head spacing on the shallow shoulder H and H, has been irrelevant on the vast majority of belted magnums.

Looks cool though. Says POWER.