Raiding Wrong Home Parting Comment

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I have no problem with Law Enforcement having virtually any kind of armament...as long as regular citizenry can have the same. To have otherwise, goes against the principles of equality this country was based on.

The instrument of control should not be force, but the will of the people.

John
 
Civilian choice of weapon can be based on whim or desire. LE choice of weapon can only be based on demonstrable need. Civilian LE are not/should not act as assault troops.
 
How much of the chest thumping evident on this thread would disappear if LE took pains to see to it that mistakes like wrong no-knock addresses are punished quickly, thoroughly, and finally (I'll ignore discussion of whether or not no-knocks should exist). Seems to me there ought to be fences constructed by our so-called constitutional "rights" beyond which LE will tread only with great fear and trepidation.

SEAL training is rigorous for good reason. I'm told one of the hard and fast unwritten rules is you will not injure another seal. Do so and the offender simply disappears from the teams. No recourse, no appeal, no muss, no fuss. . . . .the offender just goes away.

I would personally like to see that ethic employed with respect to erroneous no-knocks. Some one (one specific individual ultimately screwed up) and therefore inflicted at a minimum terror and lethal force on an innocent person living in the US. When that occurs those responsible should simply go away. Loss of career, loss of pension, loss of prestige, loss of reputation, loss of chance to ever earn another dollar in law enforcement.

Harsh? I think not. I think the most effective law code is the simplest law code. You wanna bully Americans under the auspicies of the constitution? Go ahead but be advised the cost of failure may well be more than you are willing to accept.

Now compare my simpleminded suggestion with what happened to those responsible for Ruby Ridge and Waco. Looks to me now the ethic is if you screw up and get caught violating the rights of those protected by the constitution you get promoted, bigger paycheck, bigger offices, and greater responsibility.
 
Pretty heavy thread. I think that in 95% of cases, a homeowner is going to be dazed and blinded by the "distraction device" (flash bang grenades) and the first thing he will see after that will be arc-welder-bright Sure-Fire lights under the barrels of MP-5s, aimed at his head in as he lies in bed.

He'll never even see the screaming JBTs behind the lights. He'll be rolled onto his belly with a gun in his neck and flex-cuffed without seeing a human being, much less being able to shoot back at one.

If he somehow rolls for his bedside table gun, he'll be Swiss cheese in two seconds.

As if it ended there! That kind of Gestapo terror raid, inflicted on free American citizens, is intolerable! "War on drugs" be damned!

And any JBTs had better consider carefully that they will NOT live the rest of their lives in black kevlar and face masks! JBTs who want a "normal life," to include softball, golf, fishing and shopping at Wally World, had better consider that not all citizens will accept a 3 AM terror raid inflicted on their family as an "oops! sorry!"
 
TallPine said:
But when an honest citizen hears his or her door being broken down in the middle of the night, and has to wonder whether this is a band of raping criminals or a helmeted SWAT team, then there is something terribly wrong with our society and the policies we employ to try to protect it.
Click to expand...

That simply had to be repeated. It pretty much sums up everything.

We all agree that 'mistaken address no-knocks' will be a fact of life as long as the current policies are in place. Thus, we all are tacitly agreeing that current policies put innocent Citizens at risk, often simply to preserve a little evidence by not allowing any time for it to be destroyed. How in God's name can anybody defend this practice????

If someone kicks in my door and comes charging in, I'm going to actively defend me and mine. The only other option is to passively submit, and HOPE that it's the police making a mistake. Given the ratio of real home invasions to mistakes by the constabulary, I'm statisticially better off defending myself than not.
 
Arguments aside, veiled/borderline threats against the lives of LEOs are decidedly un-Highroadish.

It is also why some LEOs wear those masks which are such a sticking point to many.
 
Maybe if they didn't choose to take a job where they wear black ski masks and smash down the doors and break in the windows of sleeping citizens at 3 AM, throwing in stun grenades, screaming obscenities, terrorizing and traumatizing the women and children for the rests of their lives, stomping kittens for jollies, throwing pregnant women so hard they miscarry, shooting 11 year old handcuffed boys already lying prone on the floor in the back with shotgun slugs, etc etc etc, no veiled threats would be forthcoming.

You might want to consider the type of country we're becoming, sometime, when all of that happens, and NOTHING happens to the JBTs involved.
 
Opinion/question.

Opinion: There are no grounds for a no-knock entry other than hostages. A dynamic entry prefaced by "POLICE!" is occasionally justified.

Think about it...you're worried someone will flush a bag of weed? For that you'll shoot them or get shot?

You're worried they'll shoot at you? Then back off and try THINKING rather than REACTING. Novel concept, eh? This is why military experts study LOGISTICS and STRATEGY. Amateurs study TACTICS. And what do they call these things? "Tactical" teams. Tactics is what you do after you've screwed up. So calling it that is an admission of failure.

Sure, they work. Against someone asleep, blasted, glared, gassed, outnumbered, outgunned (liberal rhetoric aside, the cops outgun me), by troops in armor. Would you do it one on one? (No criticism there--the only fair fight is one my people win with no casualties...but in a BEDROOM? When the alleged good guys START it?)

Otherwise, what can't be handled with a knock on the door or a bullhorn?

Sadly, my personal experiences as a victim of crime the last two years have soured me on police competence. I will resolve any further dispute myself, and not waste taxpayers' money with a call to the cops--around here, it's a waste of time. They're rude, stupid, pencil-pushing, thuggish jerks, and I want nothing to do with them. And I speak as a victim, not a criminal. Yet we're told that this is one of the better departments. I realize this opinion will eventually cause trouble for me, but I will at least have made an honest attempt at resolution, rather than running to the principal's office to be told I brought it upon myself.

Question: (and the technical questions are for research, so please answer if you can)

As I look around the house right now, there's a dozen Tonka trucks in front of the door, and a bookshelf primed to bounce said door back.

In front of the window is a couch containing two sleeping children, two stainless lamps and several hundred building blocks, some of them round.

In front of another window is a sink full of dishes, a shelf and several large glass jugs for wine.

In front of two others is a bunk bed and dresser.

In front of one is a bathroom, small, tight and with a slick, wet floor (my kids are THOROUGH in their messmaking).

In front of the other two are dressers, boxes and lamps, with some masks and objets-de-art.

Now...which way would you come in? How would you avoid tripping and tangling? Would you come in shooting at anything that moved? Or wait for the first brain bucket to come flying back out the window full of scrambled brains? Because it would. Not because I wish ill, but because I would legitimately fear for my life. How many do you think I'd get, shooting at silhouettes exposed and tangled?

And, extrapolating, if the children, whom I love more than life itself, were killed in the raid, bad feelings, million $ settlements and "honest mistake" diatribe aside, would you really BLAME a grief-stricken, outraged father for hunting down and exterminating the perpetrators like botulism bacilli?

WHY do you engage in no-knock raids? Is it "Just a job"? Because if it is, I am sorry to say I have no respect for you.

Is it something you know is wrong, that you put up with? Because if it is, I am sorry to say I have no respect for you.

Is it something you enjoy and feel justified in doing? Because if it is, I am sorry to say I have no respect for you.

No-knocks are immoral, dangerous, feloniously criminal and are going to get you, or someone else, grievously hurt. Maybe not this week, but eventually. The courageous act here would be to refuse, rather than "just following orders."

Please note: I wish no ill, I offer no threats. The end result of such a "mistake" would involve at least two dead, me one of them. I have no desire to die. But I _WILL_ kill intruders, and keep killing them until unable to, which means dead myself. If I survived, I'd need a heavy dose of therapy myself to deal with the regret of killing other people, who were acting with what they felt were good intentions. (Or, "just a job" to feed the kids...but there's MUCH safer and more moral ways to earn a living.)

Note, though: I'd have no choice. Faced with armed thugs, I would have to fight. You DO HAVE A CHOICE. To terrorize or not to terrorize. You apparently choose to terrorize. Again, why?

There's an easy way to avoid such mistakes: Don't make them. You have sirens, lights, bullhorns. You have radios. You can surround a place. Where are they going to GO? Patience is not only a virtue, it's a tool.

And if the reason you can't be patient is because the evidence might be flushed...it's really not that significant of evidence, then, is it?
 
there are sherriffs like the tv series mayberry.there are also barney fifes out there.then there are the other types.takes all kinds.they are all human and being as such will no matter how much training they recieve..will make mistakes.citizens(or civilians as some of them call us) are also human beings.we pay their salary.being that this is america and our mindset being home of the free,we believe in fighting to protect our lives and freedoms.we believe as americans that nobody has any right to invade our homes and molest or terrorize its occupants,destroy our property.so whether you are a swat doing his or her job or a homeowner just minding their own business..none of you would would savor this happening in your homes be it a leo home or some truckdriver.but it does and all too frequently in this day an age.it needs to stop.
 
GSMD Fan,

Parading para-military men-in-black police gangs are meant as a scare and intimidation tactic toward its citizens. Nothing else plain and simple.

If they break down someones door and only one or two get shot before the homeowner gets killed then it is a win situation in my book.

Some of us don't scare that easily and consider defending our homes with our lives as a non issue.

Let the men in black think about that for a second right before they kick down the next door.
 
"My only reponse is that you guys better just get the right address."

Amen to that. You'd think it would be easy, but I guess not.

I'm glad the following tale took place before the police got overly aggressive.(My opinion and my father's and he was State Trooper way back when, so I'm not anti-police by any stretch of the imagination.)

Twenty years ago or so I opened the front door one night well after 9 to find 2 uniformed officers with an arrest warrant. Stepping out on the porch and closing the door behind me(good advice Dad) I asked how I could help them. They wanted to see Mr. So-and-so. "Never heard of him. I'm the homeowner and live here alone." They wanted to see some ID. "Uh, no thanks. I'll pass. Anything else I can help you with?"
They wanted to go inside and look around. "Uh, no." They insisted. I wasn't about to let them in, but stalled with "Show me the warrant first."

Well, do tell. It was obvious what the problem was.

I live at XXX N. XX St. The warrant was for XXX S. XX St.

After I patiently explained to them that the house numbers NORTH of Main St. are NORTH and the numbers SOUTH of Main St. are SOUTH, they still wanted to go in and look for Mr. Whatshisname. "Uh, no. Good night."

Having been raised right and being a generally helpful soul, I continued smiling and calmly pointed out to them that the XXX S. XX St. was a FREAKING CITY SOFTBALL FIELD next to the tennis courts in the big city park named for a former governor. There aren't any buildings at all on that side of the street south of the Expressway. Sheesh.

I stifled the urge to offer to buy them a map. Or maybe one of those butterfly nets for them to use to try to catch a clue.

John
 
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