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Ramp and Throat Job

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by 1911Tuner, Feb 25, 2006.

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  1. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Here are a few pictures that are typical of a botched ramp job. Note the lost corner and the resulting barrel overhang into the magwell. Although it's apparent that most of the "work" was done with a grinding wheel, and followed with a buffing wheel, I've seen the same damage done with a buffing wheel and jeweler's rouge alone. It just takes longer to destroy the ramp.
     

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  2. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Picture #2

    Here is a side view of the same gun.
     

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  3. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Picture #3

    Photo of the resulting hangup caused by the barrel overhang.
     

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  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Stem Bind

    Here is another shot of the same gun that produced a typical 3-point jam
    when the incoming round managed to get past the overhanging barrel.
    Simple failures to go to/return to battery aren't stopped this early in the cycle. This stoppage likely won't go to battery by pushing on the rear of the slide. Looks to be jammed solidly against the top edge of the barrel throat.

    The gun was modified by a "gunsmith" who had boasted of his ramp and throat skills...and a gun owner is out the cost of an expensive repair.
    This one is non-salvageable, due largely to the alloy frame...and will require a steel ramp insert.


    Photos courtesy of M1911.org
     

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  5. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    re:

    I'll go ahead and stick this one for all to reference and as an example of what NOT to do to a ramp. Beware of Dremel Dan. He's read all the articles and stands ready to slick up your feed ramp for ya.
     
  6. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Thread

    Now open for comments.
     
  7. Canuck-IL

    Canuck-IL Member

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    Pretty pathetic...looks like an anodized frame and the alleged 'smith ground right through en route to ruining the barrel setback.

    What was the motivation for the surgery in the first place? Or was it just one of those things "all 1911s should have?"
    /Bryan
     
  8. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Surgery

    The owner had bought the gun from a friend after another friend had done
    a ramp and throat job on the gun. Motivation? Don't know if it was done in an attempt to make the gun feed, or just done as part of a reliability package. The report was that the surgeon had worked as a gunsmith, and had bragged about his skills with ramp and throat work.
     
  9. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Must say that you're posting some great photographs. As the say, one is worth a thousand words. :cool:

    To add: The real problems is the B.S. that any and all feeding problems can be solved with a "ramp & throat job," and a little "fluff & buff." So the cry goes up, " polish, polish ,polish..."

    Small-shop gunsmiths(?) often push this kind of work because it's easy, and puts bucks in their pockets.
     
  10. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Photos

    Than yewwww. I think I've got an old junk barrel that I can hog out the barrel ramp on to illustrate the rest of the story...since the two generally go hand-in-hand.:rolleyes:
     
  11. screwman

    screwman Member

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    Thanks for the pics Tuner. I learn something here every day. That's obviously a what not to do.


    Mike
     
  12. fantacmet

    fantacmet Member

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    As someone who is aspiring to just do anough smithing to work on some of his own guns in SOME area's (1911 triggers and most others will ALWAYS be left to a real smith, although I did follow a bit of stuff from a Beretta factory guy on improving the trigger of a U22 neos and I went very slowly and instead of removing material just did some light polishing and it worked, I wasn't aiming to really lighten the trigger, just smooth it up for a better feeling and lighten by maybe .2 ounce, and was successful, it's a completely different type of sear), this throat job is something I may consider doing some day if needed. So it brings me to a question about it.

    In order to do such a job, the best idea in my opinion would be to carefully match the angle of the feed on the barrel as best as possible, and go extremely slowly and check fit often until you are close to eliminating the the discrepancy between the barrel and throat. Then take care of the feather of the edges on the left and right, then finish up by hand polishing very slowly and carefully until the throat lines up perfectly with the barrel. This would be my take, and I would like to know how correct I am in this? Also if the procedure is correct but the angle matching is not that would be beneficial as well.

    I see this type of thing as only needing to be done if you need dead reliability of feeding of hollowpoint ammo. If you are having feed problems with ball ammo you may have other area's that need to be addressed. Also something comes to mind to check first if you are having feeding problems. Does the read of the barrel lift up creating a gap for the round to get caught on between the barrel ramp and the throat? Would this also be something more likely to cause feeding problems? The reason I bring this up is I had an old Tokarev 213 pistol that had some feeding and extraction problems caused by a heavily worn barrel. The extraction problem was obvious, the casings were getting blown out into a bowl shape, and hence getting stuck in the chamber(new barrel was being imported but got delayed so long by customs I gave up and got rid of the gun), and also with careful examination it was noticed the barrel lifted at the rear, causing the lip of a hollow opint round to occasionally get stuck on it, and deform the lip of the round with a nice little divot or slice depending upon your point of view.

    Rev. Michael
     
  13. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Angle

    Tinkering with ramp angles...barrel and throat...is a slippery slope without the right tools and measuring instruments. Eyeballing an angle doesn't work well.
    I can't see the difference between 30.5 and 31 degrees, and I seriously doubt if anyone else can on anything approaching a consistent basis.

    For one thing, the frame ramp angle and the barrel ramp angle aren't the same. Barrel ramp/throat angle is specified at 30 degrees, while the feed ramp is 31. Kuhnhausen specifies 35 degrees for a NM barrel ramp...likely to enhance feed reliability with wadcutter ammo.

    For another, the bottom of the barrel ramp isn't supposed to match the top of the feed ramp...feathered or not. It should sit slightly forward...a minimum of .030-.035 inch. It can be a little more...but not less.

    The problem with working on barrel ramps is that you can easily cut the top corner too deep into the chamber and undermine head support. Not a huge issue if the headspace is at or near minimum and downloaded ammo is used...or at least no hotter than factory hardball spec...but it often only takes a little too much to be way too much.
     
  14. Plainmark

    Plainmark Member

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    Mr. 1911 Tuner...

    How about some comments on polishing up fully supported/ramped barrels like my Para P-14-45. Can you wreck one of them?

    Plain
     
  15. fantacmet

    fantacmet Member

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    Ok kewl. As for the gap though I was referring to the ramop at the barrel being up away from the ramp on the frame, or it sticking back behind and not forward, but you reply does bring clarity and answers to what I was asking. TY.

    Rev. Michael
     
  16. Magnuumpwr

    Magnuumpwr Member

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    I am not claiming to be a gunsmith by any means, but I have no fear of tuning my own guns to meet my own needs. My Auto-Ordinance 1911A-1 was having problems with FTF, upon looking for the problem, it was the feed ramp, barrel engagement. I field stripped the gun and placed the barrel on the frame like it would be in chambering position and polished both together using a dremel with a polishing sand wheel. Now my pistol will flawlessly feed FMJ's as well as JHP's. From what I have read, I'm glad my project turned out like a dream and not a nightmare!!!
     
  17. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    re:

    Quote:

    >I field stripped the gun and placed the barrel on the frame like it would be in chambering position and polished both together using a dremel with a polishing sand wheel. Now my pistol will flawlessly feed FMJ's as well as JHP's.
    ************

    You oughta go play the lottery...:D
     
  18. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I've seen other jobs that were done that way... :eek: :eek: :eek:

    The owners ended up having to buy new pistols... :( :(

    Like Tuner says, go buy some tickets... :)
     
  19. Wastemore

    Wastemore Member

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    I have to admit, I've polished the ramps on every 1911 I own(17 to be exact) and they all run perfectly with anything I feed 'em.

    I have to ask- Shall I also buy a ticket(or 19)?

    I'm using 800->1200-> 2000 wet/dry paper to simply take out the mechine marks and glass 'em up. It sure takes me awhile, but they look like chrome when I'm finished.

    Am I simply lucky, or not taking enough metal off to make any angle difference?
     
  20. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Depending on how much metal you removed, and where your removed it from, you might or might not have damaged your pistols. Only an examination by an experienced gunsmith could tell.

    The real point though is that if a 1911 pistol is correctly set up the feed and barrel ramps don't need to be polished. If this was the case we would have never been able to build enough pistols to get through World War Two (or for that matter, World War One). Prior to Korean War very few gun owners worried about polishing anything, and the guns ran fine - in fact the complaints were far fewer then they are today. If one's pistol needs a polished ramp to run reliably it's far from acceptable as a weapon.

    It is noteworthy that most owners of Glock, SIG, H&K, Beretta, S&W, Ruger and other currently popular pistols don't seem to find the polishing to be necessary. Only some owners of 1911 platform guns are so obsessed. :scrutiny:
     
  21. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

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    I haven't bought a pistol yet that hasn't gotten some attention to the feed ramp and barrel. I have always used Flitz polish and a buffing wheel on my Dremel. It removes very, very little material but polishes like glass. While a polished feed ramp isn't exactly necassary it does create a slicker, smoother surface that prevents the buildup of carbon on the surface and aids reliability with a larger variety of ammunition. My Keltec P11 was a little finicky when I bought it but has become very reliable since I polished things up.
     
  22. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Some people have the touch and others do not. Every mechanical profession everywhere has the same problem. I am the Team Leader in the Engineering Dept. ( read Maintenance Shop Superviser ) at a hospital where I live. I did Electric Mtr. Repair, Body Work, and Air Conditioning work before coming to work here 13 years ago. The Doctors are the same way. Some have that magic touch and others are butchers. It's in the hands and eyes my friends. Not just knowledge like Tuner and those guys have. They ( Tuner Etc. ) are also skilled with their hands and have a good eye. They can tell you what to do but doing it is a whole nother thing entirely. I posted how to do something in autoloaders forum and got blasted by Tuner indirectly and politely. He was right. I should have kept my mouth shut. Something I am willing to risk on my pistol is my buisness and I should not encourage people I don't even know with skills I do not know to touch their guns. Signed...semi-reformed know-it-all.:)
     
  23. rmgunsmith

    rmgunsmith Member

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    I agree with Old Fuff

    The 1911 semi-auto pistol has seen several war time uses and I seriously doubt if the men wanted their feed ramps polished prior to firing the weapon. The 1911 was an ingenious design and functioned as such.

    In my opinion, revolvers are for the most part, much more reliable, but the 1911 semi-auto design comes real close.

    I also think that the 1911 has been chambered in much more potent cartridges than the old 45 ACP. For example the 10MM Colt Delta Elite. I have one of these fine pistols and can testify to both it's potency and accuracy. I do not have a polished feed ramp, but I did equip it with a Ed Brown stainless match grade barrel and numerous other upgrades. It is my favorite gun to carry concealed or openly. It also is a good 100 yard hunting cartridge for deer or lesser game.

    If you want to customize your 1911 with a polished feed ramp, I would suggest sending it to professionals like Gary Reeder or Wilson Combat.
     
  24. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    rmgunsmith wrote:

    >In my opinion, revolvers are for the most part, much more reliable, but the 1911 semi-auto design comes real close.<
    ************

    I'll take that bet. Bring your wheelgun and play follow the leader with me for about 2500 rounds in a day. ;)

    I'm in the camp that believes that mirror polishing of feed ramps can actually be detrimental to reliability...and I only rarely do any polishing there at all... beyond addressing any obvious deep tool marks...and then only with emery or crocus cloth on a fingertip.
     
  25. rmgunsmith

    rmgunsmith Member

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    1911 Tuner wrote:

    'll take that bet. Bring your wheelgun and play follow the leader with me for about 2500 rounds in a day.

    If I was Jerry Miculek, I would take you up on that one. I like both revolvers and semi auto-pistols. After years of shooting and working on both, the revolver is simpler and less prone to jams or stove piping, as such I have experienced in semi auto pistols.

    One thing you might try on your feed ramp is Mother's Mag & Aluminum polish on the end of a Q tip swab. Lightly polish it with swab and wipe with clean cloth. This also works good to shine up stainless steel guns.
     
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