Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by DustyGmt, Apr 30, 2021.
Nobody should be THAT stupid. Really!! But yet somebody was. Now we have security cameras and bars on the windows along with reinforced doors.
New county-owed range has those and steel on their pistol range - no paper targets allowed to prevent folks from going downrange - helps avoid a tragic OOPS by someone not paying attention. Same for their rifle range - no paper targets; they use an expensive Norwegian electronic one where you have a monitor showing where your bullets hit; you can even printout the stats
Yet, somehow, there are a lot of us in the game who just never, ever visualize the shooting of people. Granted, we may be pressed into it, but our targets are far smaller, and usually scram fast. Being able to hit a full size body silhouette, for us, has a zero value. Feral cats, wild dogs, and coyotes are all far smaller, and more elusive targets.
Being able to hit a small, specific target is a great skill and everyone should have it, or at least try and strive to get it, especially being able to do it, on-demand as needed. Im betting most are lacking here though.
Being "pressed into it" is a bad way to start off. Youre already behind the curve, and all you can do is to try and catch up as you go. If you don't know where to shoot and why, then you're even farther behind the curve. COM is just a vague and general aiming point that is basically a dumbed down version of things. Then again, any hit you make on them is good for you.But keep in mind, just because you shot them doesn't mean they are going to be impressed and go right down, you may have to press the point until they get it.
Personally, Ive come to find that the photo silhouette type targets are about the best way to get your head into the game if you're carrying a gun for self defense against people and want to practice at getting proficient there. Similar targets are a good help against animals too, if that's your worry. They get you to thinking about where you're going to place the shot, from a bunch of different angles, distances, etc, and even though you're shooting a 2d target, you can still figure out where to aim in 3d, even if it looks like a miss on the target.
Simply "shooting at" a target, no matter how good a shot you are, isn't the way to go. If you are at a level that is above most, and can reliably hit smaller targets, especially while doing other things, why arent you picking those targets on the target that will give you the best chance of shutting things down quickly?
The whole point here is to pre program the response in regular practice and to condition it so that you dont have to be "pressed into it" and have to try and catch up. You already have a pretty good idea as to what to do and why. No matter how good a shot you think you might be, you dont generally get that shooting bunnies or yotes in the yard.
The biggest problem Ive come across over the years using any kind of "person" target, be it a shape or a picture, has been the mentality of people who either don't understand or maybe do and just don't like the appearances or thought/idea of it. Something I dont get, especially if you're carrying a gun for self defense and are trying to be responsible a person, and be reasonably proficient with what it is you carry and might have to use. Isnt that the whole point?
Its like you have to tap dance around the fear and lack of education of these people.
This PC and cancel culture stuff, and the fact that people actually buy into it, is really amazing, and scary all at the same time. But I get it, the fear of "looking bad" to others who are also afraid, for whatever reason, or losing a club or range to the do gooders and those who might threaten your livelihood if that's what it is. Appearances need to be kept up to appease, even if it means you give up and give in to those who...whatever.
Its really a shame, but there are ways around it. It just all depends if you're willing to do what it takes to do what you want.
Anybody who carries a gun for self defense has visualized the scenario of shooting a person. I imagine it's about the most counter intuitive, last ditch, please God don't make me do this type of event. That's why people train and practice, they've made a choice that their life and those of their loved ones are valued above the life of someone who would take it. People think very poorly of CCW'ers and those that take an interest in gunfighting. Like we are all sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for an excuse to pull a gun out.
I've always had an interest in martial arts, knife fighting, gunfighting, self defense tactics, etc... Some people just want to be capable and have a sharp skill set. I see no harm at all in having the mindset. When you're well practiced in these things and have the right temperament, you can be a real asset for you and those around you in the event crud hits the fan. People who consider these scenarios and shoot often, train often, etc tend to have a better understanding of their own limitations and ability, making you an asset and less of a liability to those around you.
Imagine you are a gun owner and you never considered things like being forced to defend yourself in a crowded place or in your home. Do you think you would just instinctively know about things like the possibility of penetrating a wall or person and the bullet passing through and hitting somebody you didn't intend to, like a loved one or an innocent bystander. How fast you can draw and fire with accurate shot placement and at what ranges? Those things really matter and you don't just wake up one day with years of refined trigger discipline and quick, accurate shot placement. To have to make up for a wicked person's willingness to do bad and indifference for human life with an equal measure of precision, speed and skill is a tall order.
People are free to pursue their own shooting preferences (unless otherwise noted), if it's strictly for picking off praire dogs on the farm, cool....
I believe the times, they are a changing. I am a gun owner and have been since my first 22 rifle in 1957 at age 7. There was a time when most gun owners never gave a thought to having to defend family or loved ones. We simply enjoyed the shooting sports and for the most part CCW was unheard of. Homicides were rare and I grew up on LI just a few miles outside NYC. There were no armed robberies at gun point or car jackings at gun point. Yeah, the times they are a changing. Today is not what it was when I got my first guns and that includes first handguns. Do I enjoy carrying a gun? No, not really but if it comes down to it I would prefer the other guy is dead and not me or my loved ones.
Back on the actual topic. The range, any range has the option of setting their own rules just as we have a choice to give any range our business. We do have a freedom of choice and a business has the same. No shoes, no shirt, no service and no human shaped silhouette targets. That is how it plays out and when I disagree with any business policy I just take my business somewhere else. Gee ain't America great?
Guests are restricted at my club; essentially it has been an abused policy. Too many guests, too often. Those who want to shoot often should join as members and help keep the land (owned by the club); facilities and equipment up to snuff.
I've been a member of a range for about 3 years, never heard of such a policy....
Funny thing about that was when I went through the Police Academy in 2019 they told us throw away all the silhouette targets we were given because we are not allowed to shoot at people type targets that ar un armed. Instead, the instructor put out the targets that looks like a guy with a gun. By far the stupidest crap I ever heard in my life. They also dont use these targets at my club for their weekly "defensive pistol" shoots. They want you to be timed, draw from a covered, ccw type holster but you shoot at paper plates and sheets of cardboard.
Yeah well the guest thing kind if bugs me too, since 99% of the time I shoot alone, but there have been a few occasions these past few years where I've brought a new shooter, someone looking for a lil instruction, etc... it's a few and far between thing of course, and the inconvenience for me is probably outweighed by the benefit that you don't have a bunch of non members hogging up the space and making it harder on members. Idk, I would be surprised if they policed it vigilantly, I'm sure for the rare occasion I might bring someone along with me I won't have any problems. Up until now though I always brought my daughter or my wife on my membership, gonna have to get memberships for them now too I guess. Oh well.
Family is different. I am on the mow crew and one evening I pulled in and was asked if a 19-20yo woman with a little boy was my daughter? I replied no, why? Apparently she showed up with the little boy and began fishing and when questioned she said her dad was a member and was on his way. Some of the other members were so upset and ready to toss her and I said she's my guest until her dad shows. An hour goes by and no dad so one of the members questions her and I tell them I know her dad from last week when we met. He lectures her about how she's not supposed to be there without a member and then he calls the vice president who calls her dad. Our club says immediate family is unlimited but friends are limited to two. I feel like if the member is in good standing and has been there a long time then wife and kids should be able to piggy back on their membership. My gripe with the saturday mornign guys is 1 guy shows up and signs himself in and puts +3 or 4. Every bench is taken and if you want to shoot pistol no one can shoot rifle and vice versa. I finally told them last year, after being a member for about 8-9yrs now that I am sick of it and will go pay $120-yr for a longer range, better grounds, better benches and I dont have to worry about $25hrx12 for work hours you can never get in and always having to deal with members closing the range for bachelor parties, birthday parties, grad parties, bringing so many friends I have to wait an hour for a bench. I was told have at it. There is always someone on the waiting list waiting to get in. If I was in your shoe's I would find another range/club. I am. Only reason I havent jumped ship yet is the other club isnt taking members right now due to covid.
The rules are a bit silly, and were walked back, but it does happen.
Mocked them for being a non definitive, featureless silhouette or for being man shaped at all?
Gee, I’m glad my range doesn’t have those rules! This would give some ROs a heart attack.
Morons started shooting up at electrical insulators and the bullets landed far downrange in a residential area. The utility put up with that crap for only so long when complaints started coming in from the community, then revoked permission to use the land after 50 or so years.
the only rules are no drawing from holsters or shooting steel until you take the day long class
after that it’s $30 a month with unlimited free guest passes
not bad I think
Well I guess I can't complain about membership dues. I paid $35 for the last 3 years and $30 this year. Don't know why it went down $5. Also trap is $4 a round and one of the jersey guys that I bumped into one day said it's $12 a round where he goes. Reasonable membership costs, just unfortunate they have put a lil bit of a chokehold on our freedoms, etc...
Unbelievable, I would be hard pressed not to spot mop the driveway with someone's head had I seen em doing that, at the very least take down plates and drop the dime and tell them I was doing so and that I hoped they got fined by the state and utility and got a year in county. Smh. I hate stupid people, God help them. They ruin it for the rest of us.....
I wonder if this is worth a THR poll?
If you say so...
That's true at the club I belong.
Breakthrough! I'm not making fun. Same thing happens at my club, except usually the one who doesn't know 'asks somebody'. You took the action of finding out, and I salute that action.
Not surprising. Common to all ranges on which I have shot - which are widespread and many.
Paper targets only is generally intended to prevent the range from filling up with the remains of gallon jugs (and water commonly), boxes, shredded magazines and newspapers - for penetration 'testing' - broken clay pigeons left, and various bits and pieces of what is properly land fill filler.
Metal targets are a specific problem. Only metals - steel usually - rated at certain levels (AR500 comes to mind) - will not be penetrated by rather ordinary rifle rounds. Defensive handgun rounds will normally be destroyed - splattered - by lesser metals of sufficient strength. However, all metal targets which have been cratered can 'sling' a bullet around the bottom of the crater and send it back towards the firing line. And any metal target - if faced improperly - can deflect a bullet out of the range's impact area. My club allows metal targets, but only those installed and overseen by the club. They are installed and located in position where all splatter and ricochets are 'contained'.
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