Rangel Wants Mandatory Military Service

[CyberGOP]

I think this debate should be solved by this


Amendment XIII
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Longeyes and Redleg155 , if you support mandatory military service then you clearly don't give a damn about the Constitution .

As to both of you guy's assertion that young people are " selfish " or " slackers " , I don't think that it is anything new , kids have always been wild , but eventually they wise up .

Oh , and by the way , neither you or the military have the right to one minute of my life if I don't want to give it .

 

[Dienekes]

When I was drafted at 22 I felt put upon. For all I know I might have been the only college graduate who went to basic, instead of grad school, getting married, being a CO, intentionally flunking my physical, or finding some other dodge. Nonetheless I was certain that I was the center of the universe, and that doing anything personally inconvenient was indeed 'slavery'.

The only lasting regret I have from my military service is that I (and a whole bunch of other people, some of whom got dead) were flim-flammed by our erstwhile leaders. Before the draft call went out that got me, the Administration had already concluded that the Vietnam war was unwinnable. They didn't have the guts to call a spade a spade and cut their (OUR)losses. One of my few remaining ambitions is to urinate on LBJ's grave. I hope to get to it someday.

There aren't many people under 50 with any military experience these days. That has implications for everything from personal character to foreign policy. (Exhibit A: Bill Clinton.) Likewise, there are a lot of people who can't imagine how the inconveniences of 'duty, honor, country' can be borne proudly. As it happens, most of the things that I take pride in as geezerdom approaches were very 'inconvenient' at the time.

In all fairness, the real story doesn't get much of an airing these days from schools or the media.

Fortunately, Hollywood slips up occasionally and puts out something that catches the truth; 'Patriot', 'We Were Soldiers', 'Gettysburg', and 'Band of Brothers' convey it well.

 

[Orlando5]

The word conscription make me physical ill. The SOB wants to turn the most powerful military in the world into a third rate fighting force. God forbid that we put an Amish, Mennonites, or Brethren in combat units. What great morale those units would have . Even China is thinking about getting rid of its conscription army because it is better to have 100 well trains volunteer soldiers then 10,000 conscription. Drug addicts, cowards, lack of honor, liberals, and low morale are some of the things that I associate with a conscription military.

The USA has a proud history of volunteer military service. Lets keep it that way.

 

[Redlg155]

CyberGOP.....

Using the Amendment that you quoted, I take it that the draft was unconstitutional and should have been put down as such? If so, did you protest by refusing to register for the Selective Service?

Kids eventually wise up?...I beg to differ again. I can show you right now where 2000 plus kids failed to "wise up". I got there everyday for my shift on duty.

Good Shooting
RED

 

[wingman]

Oh , and by the way , neither you or the military have the right to one minute of my life if I don't want to give it ."


There it is and the best reason for the
draft.!!!!:banghead:

 

[longeyes]

Where volunteers for the U.S. military err is not prizing their service, given the mortal risk, highly enough. My own belief is that combat veterans are entitled to all manner of perquisites during and after service, akin to the privileges accorded the warrior class in times past. In a rich but equitable society that might mean free trucks of their choice every three years or unlimited free first-class air service anywhere, anytime. That even career officers earn less than middle-managers at typical corporations suggests, to me, something radically out of joint. Perhaps "Nature" will redress this imbalance at some future date...

 

[longeyes]

"Do you really think, after 9/11, that young men will not rise to the occasion when
our freedom needs defending?

If the day comes that they do not, then we will know that the military and the
war is unnecessary because America will already be dead."

Some, not all, of the Body Politic may well be moribund. But the rest of us may prefer not to die with the gangrenous limb, you know.

CyberGOP,

When did SCOTUS rule the draft unconstitutional? I missed that one. In a perfect world citizens would so prize the privileges of a Constitutional Republic that the idea of needing conscription would be laughable. Somehow we seem to have failed to imbue our citizens with a sense of their responsibilities to defend the ideas that form the predicates by which individual freedoms are made possible in a society like ours. You espouse freedom but the people who will cry out against the draft are more than likely not to be people who want freedom but those who prefer ease and pleasure to risk and hardship. That said, I am certainly not arguing that we give any Government a free pass to promote policies that are not in The People's best interests. Here again, though, we come to the issue of participation in, not alienation from, Government.

 

[Pendragon]

Some, not all, of the Body Politic may well be moribund. But the rest of us may prefer not to die with the gangrenous limb, you know.

So, in other words, the "rest of us" prefer to live free by forcing others to die for their freedom?

Do you really think it is ok to force young men to go be in a war so that other people do not have to die?

Certainly it is pragmatic, but it is indefensible.

And as for your assertion:

You espouse freedom but the people who will cry out against the draft are more than likely not to be people who want freedom but those who prefer ease and pleasure to risk and hardship.

You are trying to discredit the notion of the draft as immoral by discrediting the people you percieve as supporting this idea as immoral or lazy or lacking credibility, etc.

It really does not matter WHO opposes conscription. Please try to justify forcing others to die so that you can maintain your lifestyle.

I will say it again - if America cannot produce enough good people to defend her voluntarily, then America is already over. The concept of freedom and liberty are higher than even this great nation that was founded on those ideas. You are essentially saying that it is more important that America continue to exist than it is to promote freedom and liberty.

I disagree.


ps. I am as pro-military as a civilian can be, and I am passionately against the draft - I think it is bad for everyone involved.

 

[Jim Diver]

Hell, let's just throw out the 3rd while we are at it and start moving soldiers off the base and into any house they like.


It's just about the only ammendment that has not been ignored, AFAIK.....

 

[CyberGOP]

Redlg155 , I did register with the draft , I am not going to risk felony conviction , that still doesn't mean the draft is right or constitutional , in Michigan , one also has to has to register ones handguns , which violates my second ammendment rights , but when I buy a pistol I will comply , because I don't want to go to jail , I have fought against this system by working for pro-gun candidates . Yes Redleg, the draft is indeed unconstitutional , according to the 18th ammendment to the constitution .

Amendment XIII
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

That alone should end the debate on the draft .

Longeyes , I don't need a supreme court case to tell me the draft in unconstitutional , I can read . Just because the constitution wasn't enforced in the past doesn't mean it is acceptable to ignore it now .

Oh , and Redleg , juvenile delinquency is nothing new , the vast majority of youths respect the rights of others , and those who do not respect the rights of others should be dealt with .

Wingman , how is the assertion that I , being an adult citizen of the United States , have the right to live my life as I please a reason why we need the draft ?

 

[igor]

I did my mandatory service some 12 years ago. I'll be constantly repositioned in reserve until I turn 60. The grueling 1-year training, the sporadically upcoming 1-week repetition stints and the resulting understanding of the reality of modern warfare certainly work well - in creating a strong will for maintaining peace in a nation's thinking. Si vis pacem, parat bellum; it's bad enough in training, for G0d's sake I don't want to do this for real nor do I wish that anyone had to, ever. But if we have to, we darn well know how and why.

Conscription is the way to this mind set. Where I live some 85% of the male population still go; most of the rest do civil service, only a few are exempted because of religion. There is a sort of a "heinleinian" social or peer pressure to do one's part, at least not to be considered a parasite. A professional military would be no option here, even from a purely strategic standpoint.

I consider the professional military like the US has a manifestation of a truly segregated class society. What someone wrote about the middle class voter enjoying real war on TV, happily detached from the reality on-camera, certainly is the case. "Just let the not-so-well-off Hispanics and Blacks that had less options in life do the dirty work". If Johnny across the street had to go defend the puppet president's oil industry stake holders' interests with _his_ life, the mentality would be different and hence the priorities of the "elected" government accordingly.

My .02€

 

[wingman]

consider the professional military like the US has a manifestation of a truly segregated class society. What someone wrote about the middle class voter enjoying real war on TV, happily detached from the reality on-camera, certainly is the case.â€



Right,! we as a society are failing, in the past 35-40 years our public schools alongwith poor parenting has taught our youth to have high self esteem, large ego’s andlittle else in the way of common sense, patience or willing to work hard.

We moved from a rural to urban society that is fat and lazy, i do not include all youth in this but too many, most would crumble and cry with a (ti) or (di) yelling in there face.

Most want someone to do there fighting for them, clean there homes, pick there food, anyone but me because i am a free man, no one can tell me what to do.

I believe it was Nikita Kruschev who said “give it time and america will destroy it’s self.

 

[wingman]

consider the professional military like the US has a manifestation of a truly segregated class society. What someone wrote about the middle class voter enjoying real war on TV, happily detached from the reality on-camera, certainly is the case.â€



Right,! we as a society are failing, in the past 35-40 years our public schools alongwith poor parenting has taught our youth to have high self esteem, large ego’s and little else in the way of common sense, patience or willing to work hard.

We moved from a rural to urban society that is fat and lazy, i do not include all youth in this but too many, most would crumble and cry with a (ti) or (di) yelling in there face.

Most want someone to do there fighting for them, clean there homes, pick there food, anyone but me because i am a free man, no one can tell me what to do.

I believe it was Nikita Kruschev who said “give it time and america will destroy it’s self.

 

[Russ]

Rangel is almost, note "almost" as stupid as he looks. Even then I guess this is a debateable.

 

[whoami]

And what, since the children are hiding behind the shield of their freedoms, the solution to the problem is simply to.....deprive them of said freedom?



This is the FORCED CONSCRIPTION of EACH AND EVERY MALE CITIZEN from 18-26. There exists no choice, no possibility to defer service. It is sadly ironic that many seem to believe that in order to instill a respect for the founding principles of this nation we must tear those very principles apart.

It would to the mind of myself and many others forever tarnish the perception of military service. Oh...forgive me....military SLAVERY. For if they are given no choice, then it is nothing less than that...there is no inherint difference than if they were chained to an oar and forced to row. 'We keep you alive to serve this army. Shoot well, and live'. There is no honor in being forced to serve, whether their be a purpose or not. There is even less honor in being complicit to such a denial of rights. And it disgusts me that there are people in the military, who have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, who would support this.

I am a man who tries to judge everyone by who they are, and the actions they take.....therefore I am utterly disgusted at this presentation of the 'sins of the fathers'. For the price of the fathers warmongering, the sons must loose their freedom and their lives? And what lesson do you wish to teach them? If someone isn't acting how you'd like, just violate them until they do? Do you think many of those...what was it...'want someone to do there fighting for them, clean there homes, pick there food, anyone but me because i am a free man, no one can tell me what to do' children are going to THANK you for ripping away their freedom?

Most want someone to do there fighting for them, clean there homes, pick there food, anyone but me because i am a free man, no one can tell me what to do.

Yes, I am a free man. And I respect those who have answered the calling of this nations Armed Forces. But if any man shows up at my house, and tells me that I or my children must choose only between serving in the military, or serving in prison....I will treat that person exactly as I would treat the one coming to eradicate my right to keep and bear arms.

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense...."
Alexander Hamilton

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
Patrick Henry

 

[Flying V]

The armed forces of the United States should not be a conscript Volkssturm.

 

[para.2]

The draft is wrong!

I have served my entire adult life in the armed forces of this country. I have killed people I probably had more in common with than the people in my own country who would not serve. Even so, I, and the young men I served with saw it as an honor, and a sacred duty, to go where others would not , to do what others were unwilling to do.
There are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. I do not resent the sheep, and would not like to see them forced to do the job of a sheepdog.
" And that's all I've got to say about that."

 

[Sean Smith]

Instituting the draft would be idiotic in the extreme.

It would be an unjustified tyrannical measure.

It would lower the quality of the armed forces by introducing more unmotivated slugs into the system, and reducing the time in service to the point where soldiers would leave by the time they know their jobs.

It would not be egalitarian, since the elites would always have a way out so their kids wouldn't have to die.

It would breed resentment of the armed forces in the general population.

It would degrade military service into an oppression forced upon you instead of a calling. Ex post facto nostalgia wouldn't compensate for the discontent it would create and maintain among those "under the gun."

It would NOT prevent the president getting Americans killed for no good reason. It would curb neither public bloodlust nor policy stupidity. See the last 200 years of American history for details.

In short, it is a terrible idea, and since the end of World War II was an abject failure on all fronts.

 

[El Jefe]

After reading some of these replies I am having difficulty believing what I am seeing... I think a Mandatory two year hitch would do a world of good, I just retired from 23 years of Active duty service. It is not going to Cramp anyones style, but it will give all Americans a more educated view on just what exactly our military does and what they go through. Right now ships are deploying undermanned as are all the other services. More manpower means alot ESPECIALLY now! This attitude of I am all for a strong military , AS LONG AS IT IS SOMEONE else's kid sucks. I think the Nation as a whole would have a greater appreciation for the services as a whole, not to mention firearms. (because they are getting firearms training helping to remove the stigma) If you knew what some of these military families go through you would realize that more manpower would decrease deployments and enhance the service members lives. Look at Israel Men and women both MUST serve. I am for it, Great idea if you ask me!

 

[Pendragon]

El Jefe,

I am sincerely grateful for your years of service. So do not take this personally.

The way I see it, the military should have no say in it. The same way that law enforcement should have no say in the gun control debate.

I think a Mandatory two year hitch would do a world of good,

Would do WHO a world of good? The people pressed into service? You know what else would do those people a world of good? Mandatory exercise every morning at 6:00am. Government monitoring of parenting styles. A GPS in every car that writes automatic traffic tickets every time we break a traffic law.

There are a lot of things we can force people to do that would have some "good" associated with them. However, freedom is the highest end and the greatest good, and we cannot defend the freedom of some by taking it from others.

I just retired from 23 years of Active duty service.

It is not going to Cramp anyones style

Forgive me, but when did you become the decider of what will "cramp anyones style"?

So you think that young men who may have a girlfriend, possibly a wife and child, ties to the community, and education in process, possibly a job or business - that forcing them to join the military will "do a world of good" and "not cramp their style"?

Just on the basis of the fact that many fathers would not be able to see their kids much during some or most of the servitude is enough to make me passionately against it.

, but it will give all Americans a more educated view on just what exactly our military does and what they go through.

Again sir, I respect your service and I believe that all citizens ought to - but those who are not inclined to value it are not going to come around just becuase you make them.

Let me ask you this - what if they government wanted to force you to work as a daycare worker or teacher for a couple years? Or. what if they wanted to force you into the clergy or to work as a medic for a while. Does not matter what the task is, they do not have the right to force you to work for them.

Right now, we need teachers. There is a shortage of teachers and many kids are doing poorly in school. This situation could affect the entire future of our nation for generations.

For this reason, I propose the National Teacher Act. All people will be expected to register with the Department of Education on their 18th Birthday and birthdates and years will be drawn as necessary. When your birthday is drawn, you will be expected to report for your 2 years of service at the school where you are needed.

There will be no deferrals, and it does not matter what your intelligence or educational level is.

THE CHILDREN NEED YOU!

 

[Zak Smith]

A free-market solution.

Here's an idea: If the country needs more young people to join the military, "we" can offer to pay them a higher salary, just like any other job. Supply and demand will solve the problem. That way you will (probably) eventually attract that young father or kid in college, once it's worth his while, and you won't push anyone into slavery in the process. The rest of society will be paying "market price" for their service, and getting national protection in return.

-z

 

[wingman]

Forgive me, but when did you become the decider of what will "cramp anyones style"? "


Oh yes the sound of youth, who are you
to tell me anything.

In truth we have less freedom now then
when the draft was active. In ww2 men
killed themselves when told they were
4f, sad but we "have" lost a nation of
men and become what.

 

[El Jefe]

To do your part for God and country should be the goal of every young man or woman. I have seen first hand and lived in the shoes of the men and women serving this country. I can tell you first hand that our military was cut to the bone 1 person now does the job of 4, long hours extra duty, many months away from Family, friends and loved ones including wives and children. I have watched many grow from barely worth anything to hard chargers, leaders with werewithawl, and why? because of the environment, that was part of my job, to make these young men and women who come from ALL walks of life, Rich or poor Midwestern or Urban street into the leaders of tomorrow. They are taught words like Honor, Courage and Committment and what it means to live up to that code. Todays youth could use a lesson in Honor, courage and commitment, Most have an I am owed mentality and know little of these things. They expect things and when they do not get it they get pedantic and petulant. I have seen, led and guided individuals who were forced into service, by a court, by their parents or by their circumstances and I have seen them turn into fine individuals that I would go to war with if necessary. I reiterate it would not hurt the youth of today to do mandatory military service. I know what it is to leave a loved one behind, At Christmas, over birthdays, anniversaries etc so do not think me insensitive to those issues. Everyone of those men and women have "Ties to the Community" that are just as important, just as valuable as those who won't serve their country and I dare say their service makes them love and cherish those ties even more. If my government needed me to do service as a teacher and pressed me into it It would only be yet one more answer to a call from God and Country, one I have answered time and again in peacetime and in war. I beg to differ sir it would do them a WORLD of good AND it would relieve the pressure on our Sons and Daughters who are doing this nations bidding while we sleep securely under the blanket of freedom that they so tirelessly provide.
While I agree that are young men and women deserve a huge payraise for the job they do is an excellent idea, our Senate and House are filled with Senators and Congressmen who have little Military background, so they do not know what the military goes through, how much they really give so are not inclined to give the kind of raises that they deserve. There are already a ton of incentives out there it is not drawing the necessary personnel. Money alone will not do the trick. GOD forbid we have to fight a war on two fronts against a real enemy with teeth and a willingness to Fight....... especially if it gets brought to American Soil, again! You will quickly see what years of downsizing has done to our military and may have to rethink your position I would wager......... Take it Personal ?? Damned right I take it personal, been there and done that and have a chest full of medals to prove it......... take it from me it won't hurt them one bit and we will all be better off for it. It will be like getting thier drivers license, just something they have to do in the course of life

 

[Zak Smith]

Does El Jefe - or the United States - own me? Hell no. To say otherwise is slavery.

But you can be sure that if the USA needs warriors for a just war, we will come. There was no shortage in WWII.

-z

 

[suvdrvr]

______________________________________________--
While I don't agree with much he says, he still is a U.S. Congressman and should be respected. Blast his ideas nut respect the office. After all, that is the core of our democracy, otherwise, we'd get no legislation passed.
_______________________________________________-

Wouldn't that be a blessing if no legislation were to be passed.
Was a time that legislators had real jobs and being a congressman was an extra duty that men did as a way to serve their country, not unlike the military. Why don't we draft congress people?