Ranges & Gun Shows: No Loaded Weapons!

[Orion8472]

Local gunstore here has a sign to that says, "No Loaded Firearms", but they said it is for those who are bringing them in for either pawn or to sell. Conceal carry guys needn't bother unloading if it stays concealed.

 

[Wildbillz]

I can't count the number of times I have had guns pointed at me in a gunshow. I have been at three of them when there was a ND. So ya I understand and agree with the No loaded firearms in a gunshow thing.

Last show I was at a fella accidently shot his Father-in-law while reloading his carry piece after exiting the show. FIL didn't make it through the night.

I trust my handling of a loaded firearm but Everyone else is Suspect...

WB

 

[gun_with_a_view]

I have been at three of them when there was a ND

My biggest fear is an incompetent person attending CCW training who brings a handgun with them will have an ND when informed to empty their gun. I was flabbergasted at the percentage of people entered the classroom with a loaded firearm at the first class I attended. Equally amazing was the two instructors actual police officers, who seemed oblivious to the danger.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I agree with the unloaded policy.
The gun shows I attend go one step further.
They zip tie your g so it's disabled.
When you leave they cut the tie off

AFS

 

[Sam1911]

The gun shows I attend go one step further.
They zip tie your g so it's disabled.
When you leave they cut the tie off

Yeah, that's what the shows up here do too, if you walk in with a gun to sell or trade.

(Of course, again, there's no pat-down at the door so concealed weapons don't get that treatment. Most folks seem to be able to keep it under wraps, though.

Then again, who's to say you didn't bring a set of snips for that zip tie...?)

 

[NoVA Shooter]

To look at it from another angle, who here thinks they would ever need their defensive firearm in a gun shop or show? That is one respect in which gun shops and shows differ greatly from any other venue. What do you think would happen to the idiot who attempts armed robbery in either place? It may be rule that the patrons are disarmed, but I have yet to be at any example of either where the staff isn't.

Gun shops still do get robbed. Maybe not often or successfully, but it does happen. But I think the greater point is that regardless of where I am, why should I be denied the right to have the means to defend myself? I don't want to rely on someone else (the clerk at the gun store or the security guard at the mall) to defend me. It's not their job and what if they determine it's not in their best interest (which is their right) should the circumstance arise.

We always talk about how we carry not because we expect something to happen, but to be prepared in case something does. Should that change in a gun store? No, I don't think I'll ever need my CC in a gun store, but that doesn't me I never will need it.

But that is just another perspective on the matter; it really is about safety. Same reason MPs are the only ones allowed to be armed on a military base; it's obviously not because the military dislikes guns.

I would say the perception of safety.

 

[JustinJ]

Remember that 50% of the people you meet are below average....

Guns and the sum of all those averages concentrated in large numbers? Uhh..... <sigh>...

So...then wouldn't it make sense to oppose these "below average" people from being allowed to carry guns in other public places?

Does it not seem odd to say gun owners can't safely carry loaded guns at a gun show but its fine for them to do so pretty much everywhere else?

Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[GEM]

Our LGS signs say - Don't handle your concealed weapon!

At shows, idiots tend to do that. We've gotten 30.06 signs because of an incident. I talked to the show runner who said he hated to put up the sign but he had to deal with the liability.

In Target, you probably don't have a reason to remove and fondle your gun. At shows and stores, idiots do that.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Strictly talking CC.

Hell yes, it is hypocritical to not allow a loaded gun.

It should be - no loaded UN-HOLSTERED weapons.

 

[Sam1911]

So...then wouldn't it make sense to oppose these "below average" people from being allowed to carry guns in other public places?

It would be rational to do so, but not practical (in other words, it really CAN'T be stopped) and would be anathema to the exercise of the rights of free peoples.

Does it not seem odd to say gun owners can't safely carry loaded guns at a gun show but its fine for them to do so pretty much everywhere else?

Only if you've missed the most pertinent posts in this thread, explaining the difference between going out in public where no one handles any guns ever except in the most dire and extenuating of circumstances, and going to a gun-handling event and/or venue -- where everyone's handling LOTS of guns and very strict practices must be observed to keep everyone safe.

Again, though, this is mostly a re-active system. Having the rule in place gives the operators immediate standing to evict anyone who illustrates that they cannot follow the proper protocols. They aren't going to search you for concealed weapons going in. But they CAN toss you out if you forget to keep yours in your pants.

Just playing devil's advocate.

Uh huh. The devil has a lot of representation around here.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:

- have a gun store near a school
- have a gun near a school
- have a gun at a sporting event
- . . . . . and the list goes on.

Unbelievable.

 

[jr_watkins]

To answer the OP, of course it is hypocritical!! I've also just read every post in this thread and even though I normally respect the opinions of this room, most of you are double talking and making excuses. All the reasons being sited (insurance, lots of guns, gun handling, lots of idiots, guns are dangerous, etc.) would bring a landslide of scorn if sited by a big box store as a reason not to allow guns.

You are playing both sides. The only difference is that you LIKE the gun shows and the gun stores and the gun ranges so you are willing to compromise for them without making a fuss. Yup, that is hypocrisy.

 

[JustinJ]

It would be rational to do so, but not practical (in other words, it really CAN'T be stopped) and would be anathema to the exercise of the rights of free peoples.

Lots of things can't be stopped, not exactly a valid reason not to attempt to reduce incidents thereof. ND do in fact happen in public by CCers fairly often, at least as often as at gun shows. Hell, some idiot just recently shot his off his willy with a 1911 while trying to holster it(not sure if that meant 'shove into waste band').

Only if you've missed the most pertinent posts in this thread, explaining the difference between going out in public where no one handles any guns ever except in the most dire and extenuating of circumstances, and going to a gun-handling event and/or venue -- where everyone's handling LOTS of guns and very strict practices must be observed to keep everyone safe.

There are in fact idiots who do handle guns in public outside of dire situations, in addition to ND's by dropping guns in bathrooms, accidentally leaving them laying around in public, etc, etc. Its just odd to me how black and white the gun community seems to see CC issues except in this circumstance, as if the risks must be directly observed to be accepted as real.

Again, though, this is mostly a re-active system. Having the rule in place gives the operators immediate standing to evict anyone who illustrates that they cannot follow the proper protocols. They aren't going to search you for concealed weapons going in. But they CAN toss you out if you forget to keep yours in your pants.

Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.

Uh huh. The devil has a lot of representation around here.

I just see nuance where many refuse.

 

[Sam1911]

Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.

And?

 

[Sam1911]

Lots of things can't be stopped, not exactly a valid reason not to attempt to reduce incidents thereof.

How?

ND do in fact happen in public by CCers fairly often, at least as often as at gun shows.

Gonna have to see some kind of basis for that belief, one way or the other. Seems to me a very difficult thing to quantify, and an almost impossible thing to qualify based on rates and opportunities and time involved. (E.g.: Millions of people carry for several hours every day. There aren't gun shows every day, let alone millions attending so the rates of accident will be mighty difficult to compare.)

There are in fact idiots who do handle guns in public outside of dire situations, in addition to ND's by dropping guns in bathrooms, accidentally leaving them laying around in public, etc, etc. Its just odd to me how black and white the gun community seems to see CC issues except in this circumstance, as if the risks must be directly observed to be accepted as real.

I'm not sure what your point is. There are a few goobers who get themselves into trouble during their everyday concealed carry routine. That doesn't mitigate or modify somehow the special considerations of conditions in a gun show. Kind of like saying, "Sometimes bears hurt people. But don't worry, climbing into a pen with tigers is dangerous too!"

 

[Sam1911]

You are playing both sides. The only difference is that you LIKE the gun shows and the gun stores and the gun ranges so you are willing to compromise for them without making a fuss. Yup, that is hypocrisy.

Not really. For me it is exactly the same. I (used to, sometimes, occasionally) patronize gun shows, even though they have a "no loaded firearms" policy. I patronize Target or whomever the same way. If for some reason I'm irresponsible enough to have my gun out needlessly, they can ask me to leave. And I'll go. If I keep it in the holster they don't have a problem and I don't have a problem, and we conclude our business amicably.

No muss, no fuss.

 

[DT Guy]

I always thought the appropriate sign for a gun shop to post regarding CC would be something like:

We permit the carry of concealed weapons by those duly licensed to do so. But if you pull yours....we'll pull ours!




Larry

 

[Old Dog]

Bah. Pragmatism, logic and caution should never be confused with hypocrisy -- or compromise.

Get off the computer for a while and join the real world, guys. No one here is "making excuses" or "sounding like the antis." There is a difference between an idealist, and an idealist with experience.

 

[jr_watkins]

No Sam1911, it's hypocrisy because when the big box store says you can't bring in your [loaded] gun you cry second amendment rights etc (which I agree with 100%), but when the gun store, range, show does it mums the word. You may choose not to attend or go to the gun store, but you don't show the same outrage as when the non-gun store does the same thing. It is by definition a double standard.

 

[Sam1911]

Not so, Junior!

I don't cry anything... a private entity (store, gun show promoter, range, etc.) cannot in any way EVER violate my 2nd Amendment rights. The 2nd Amendment speaks only to what the GOVERNMENT and may not do.

 

[JustinJ]

Quote:
Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.

And?

And...at some shows its not just a reactive system as you stated.

How?

How do you reduce unsafe handling and ND in public? Adequate mandatory training, education and testing for CC permits is a good start, in my opinion.

Gonna have to see some kind of basis for that belief, one way or the other. Seems to me a very difficult thing to quantify, and an almost impossible thing to qualify based on rates and opportunities and time involved. (E.g.: Millions of people carry for several hours every day. There aren't gun shows every day, let alone millions attending so the rates of accident will be mighty difficult to compare.)

Are you saying millions CC everyday or speaking in hypothetical? If not, then i'm gona also ask for some data because i seriously doubt a million CCiers carry each day.

Admittedly, i don't have actual numbers to back up my claim but i believe i hear significantly more stories about hazardous concealed carry events much more often than NGs at gun shows or shops.

I'm not sure what your point is. There are a few goobers who get themselves into trouble during their everyday concealed carry routine. That doesn't mitigate or modify somehow the special considerations of conditions in a gun show. Kind of like saying, "Sometimes bears hurt people. But don't worry, climbing into a pen with tigers is dangerous too!"

The goobers you speak of don't just get themselves into trouble, they unfortunately put all those around them in danger as well. My point is that there is a bit of hypocricy in that restrictions to avoid such events at gun shows are palatable to the gun community (most anyways), but people who express concerns about risks of concealed carry in public are demonized, called socialists or subjected to silly mantras. Why is it too much to ask somebody not to carry at a school to avoid ND's but it is okay at a gun show? People can't get robbed outside a gun show? A mass shooter couldn't attack there?

 

[coloradokevin]

I understand the reason for the prohibition on loaded weapons in gun shows… the rationale is the same as the one we use during training scenarios at work (where loaded guns are also prohibited). In short, at an event where thousands of people with various levels of training WILL be handling guns, and often operating the actions and triggers on these guns, inviting a loaded gun into that environment is simply an invitation for an accident to happen.

I wish this wasn't so, but people can be careless at times, and it only takes one person who "knew" the gun he was handling was "unloaded" before something bad happens.

The gun show scenario is quite a bit different from the average defensive carry situation. For a normal CCW holder the gun will be put on when they leave their house, and not touched again until it is taken off back at home. Even in law enforcement I spend 98% or more of my on-duty time doing activities that don't involve handling my gun.

 

[JustinJ]

I think we all agree that handling loaded weapons is a no-no at gun shows. But the prohibition against carrying them is what is being discussed.

 

[Sam1911]

And...at some shows its not just a reactive system as you stated.

Really? Ok. So they ask to zip-tie any weapons you show them, at the door. That's all they do. They aren't stopping anyone from entering with a concealed sidearm.

Proactive? Reactive? Maybe that's one of the nuances you were talking about.

 

[Theohazard]

Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:

- have a gun store near a school
- have a gun near a school
- have a gun at a sporting event
- . . . . . and the list goes on.

Unbelievable.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed: Nobody is arguing that the prohibition of loaded guns in guns shows should be banned by law. These are private events, and therefore the owners and organizers should have the right to decide what happens inside their doors. But the antis want to pass laws banning people from carrying in those places you listed, and that's the fundamental difference.

I have no problem if a gun show or gun shop (or any other private establishment) wants to make their own rules; they should be completely free to do so. And I had enough loaded guns pointed at me while working at a gun shop that I think it's probably a good idea from a safety standpoint. And anyone who thinks that makes me the same as the antis simply isn't thinking this through.

it's hypocrisy because when the big box store says you can't bring in your [loaded] gun you cry second amendment rights etc (which I agree with 100%), but when the gun store, range, show does it mums the word. You may choose not to attend or go to the gun store, but you don't show the same outrage as when the non-gun store does the same thing. It is by definition a double standard.

I think most people aren't being hypocritical. I know I'm not. If a private establishment like Target or Chipotle wants to make their own rules and request for customers to not carry guns in their store, that's their right. I don't like it, but I fully support their right to do so. And anyone who thinks that's a Second Amendment violation obviously doesn't understand the Second Amendment. That's like claiming it's a First Amendment violation when a mod deletes a post here on THR.

And there is also a fundamental difference between, say, Target and an LGS. When was the last time you saw someone point a gun at someone when you were at Target? It probably doesn't happen very often, so there's much less of a need for Target to make rules regarding guns. But at an LGS, range, or gun show, that happens all the time. I had guns -- loaded and not -- pointed at me all the time at the LGS where I worked. People loved to pull out their carry gun for you to look at it. One time someone pulled out a loaded Glock and pointed it at an employee's face so he could show him the broken flashlight that was attached to it. And his finger was on the trigger.