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Rant about new gun law. Is this real?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 7mmsavage, Jan 9, 2009.

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  1. 7mmsavage

    7mmsavage Member

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    I was in one of my favorite local gun stores yesterday, when I heard something that has made my blood boil for several reasons. I was looking for some scope rings, which are kept behind the counter, so I had to wait while the guy behind the counter showed another customer a Sig 556 rifle. After a few minutes the other customer says, "I'll take it", and starts to pull out his I.D.'s. "What do you need?"he asks. The answer is what got me steamed. "For a rifle or pistol, a Va driver's liscense and something else with your address, BUT FOR AN ASSAULT RIFLE, we need a birth certificate or something to prove you are a citizen.

    This is something I hadn't heard before, so I spoke up and asked if that is a Virginia law or a store policy. The employee says, "I think it's a federal law". I replied, without really thinking I was being rude, "A federal law, that's terrible". The employee says, "You say terrible, but I wouldn't want someone who's not a citizen getting their hands on this", as he holds the Sig up in front of him. After he finished helping the customer, he walked back by me without making eye contact and dissapeared into the back of the store. I stood there for a few minutes and finally left, never did get my scope rings.

    Anyway, I don't have a problem with the guy following the rules, but I figured a fellow gun enthusiast would be equally frustrated with new rules being made up for certain guns. I am even more upset that there must be some list of what guns are "assault rifles". After I left, I really started thinking about what else is considered an assault rifle, a mini 14, a saiga, an SKS, M1a or even a Garand? I'm sure someone out there has recently bought an AR or AK, has anyone else run into this?
     
  2. everallm

    everallm Member

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    Utter BS, full stop, end of story.
     
  3. 7mmsavage

    7mmsavage Member

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    I hope you are right, I googled the subject a little and couldn't find anything about it. I do know this same gun shop had an AR on display that had a sign on it saying 'You must be 21 to purchase', so maybe it's just a store policy and an ill informed employee.
     
  4. everallm

    everallm Member

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    As far as I am aware the only state the has restrictions on permanent residents (other than the federal NICS , must also show 90 days of utilities bills) is Washington state.

    Even this has nothing to do with "assault weapons" but about a particularly stupid permit system.

    VA doesn't but does re-iterate the federal law that aliens who are NOT permanent resident aliens (Green Card holders) cannot hold "assault firearms.

    So any PRA is permitted to purchase, just needs to show, as they do everywhere, their Green Card, state issued photo ID and 90 days of utility bills.

    The no birth certificate, no "assault weapon" is bull as is the "Must be 21" rule, law says 18

    Precis of the law linked

    http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=VA
     
  5. vt357

    vt357 Member

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    Actually it is a Virginia law - you must prove citizenship/permanent residency to purchase an assault rifle. This law is not new.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2

    See this old discussion thread for more info.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282797

    ETA: As everallm pointed out, permanent residency also applies, not just citizenship. But you still must provide one of the listed documents to purchase one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009
  6. ravonaf

    ravonaf Member

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    That's an odd law considering there is no such thing as an assault firearm. Where do they get the exact definition of such a thing? I know I am always required to show 2 forms of ID (drivers license and voter registration card) for all firearms purchases.
     
  7. everallm

    everallm Member

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    VT357

    Read all the statute it says

    or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence
    , thats a Green Card holder a.k.a. Permanent Resident Alien

    As I already stated above this is just a re-iteration of the federal law and all you do is show your Green Card, photo ID and proof of 90 day residence

    or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

    No requirements for citizenship, no US passport, no US birth certificate

    An "assault firearm" in VA is defined as a semi automatic, center fire rifle or pistol with a greater than 20 round magazine. NOT the ability to accept a greater than 20 round capacity magazine

    You can buy it with a 20 round mag, buy a 30 round mag separately and it's not an assault firearm.......It's stupid but it's the way the law is written
     
  8. vt357

    vt357 Member

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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2

    About halfway down the page:

    Since the AR has a threaded muzzle, under this law one can assume that it has been designed so that it can "accommodate a silencer." (Not legal advice)

    Virginia also has a law against carrying assault weapons in certain localities (most of highly populated cities/counties in the state), though CHP holders are exempt from that law.
     
  9. JDoe

    JDoe Member

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    I thought U.S. citizenship or being a green card holder was a federal pre-requisite to purchasing any firearm in the U.S. That makes the Virginia law pointless doesn't it?
     
  10. exflatlander

    exflatlander Member

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    Move to Massachusetts - I need to show my LTC just to buy ammunition.
     
  11. ravonaf

    ravonaf Member

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    So just for clarification. It has to be sold with a magazine that holds more than 20 at the time of sale? Or is capable of holding a 20 round magazine? The "and" sounds very definitive. I would read that as a requirement to meet the definition and so a firearm sold with a 20 round mag or less is NOT an "Assault firearm".
     
  12. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    They're gun laws. They don't have to make sense.

    I've never asked anyone for a birth certficate or passport (I had one customer use a passport once as ID but thats different). If they're non citizens then they check that information on the form and fill in the A number.

    To my knowledge a green-card alien has every right that a U.S. citizen does except the right to vote.
     
  13. everallm

    everallm Member

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    The "and" is definitive and means at the immediate time of sale.

    If it didn't then, for example every Glock, HK, CZ etc pistol would be an assault weapon as after market magazines greater than 20 rounds are all available.

    There is no prohibition on buying 20+ round magazines by anyone.

    Note, it is not prohibited to own or make it an "assault weapon", it is prohibited to buy in that configuration....if your actually not allowed to buy it anyway in an illegal manner as your not a citizen OR legal permanent resident alien......:banghead:

    Oh, or use it in a crime......:what:

    "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury the individual is charged with slaughtering 21 Shriners as he hated the little hats AND HE DID IT WITH AN ASSAULT FIREARM"

    In any case as I already said it's moot as it doesn't affect legal PRA's
     
  14. BBQLS1

    BBQLS1 Member

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    404 Error: Assault Rifle not found.
     
  15. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    I was a Dicks Sporting goods recently, and I was going to make a purchase. I did not remember to give my SSN on the form, I usualy skip optional questions as a rule. This always results in a delay.

    I said thats cool, I will just come back in 72 hours, as the law says if the NICS has not returned a denial by then, to proceed with the sale. The guy behind the counter said it is thier policy to wait 30 full days before the sale. And he said, usually they re-submit the NICS check.

    When they called me the next day with the proceed, I explained to them that it is becoming difficult enough with the laws to purchase a firearm that we do not need stores making it harder, and that I would take my business elsewhere.

    Sorry to hi-jack, just seemed to fit.

    leroy
     
  16. CDH

    CDH Member

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    When I bought a pistol a few weeks ago, the guy behind the counter suggested that it was not required to give my SSN on "the form".
    He said it was none of their damn business.

    He's right, it isn't required to give your SSN when you buy a gun.
     
  17. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Virgina also has a law that says you can't CCW a gun with a magazine that holds greater than 20 rounds, correct?
     
  18. everallm

    everallm Member

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    From the ATF's web site FAQ's

    (P33) Is the transferee required to provide his or her social security number on the ATF Form 4473? [Back]

    No. This information is solicited on an optional basis. However, providing this information will help ensure the lawfulness of the sale and avoid the possibility that the transferee will be incorrectly identified as a felon or other prohibited person.

    [27 CFR 478.124]


    It just makes it easier for the NICS check to differentiate between folks with a common name...John Smith etc
     
  19. tang22

    tang22 Member

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    "Correct me if I'm wrong, but Virgina also has a law that says you can't CCW a gun with a magazine that holds greater than 20 rounds, correct?"

    Sort of. You are referring to § 18.2-287.4.

    You can't carry some weapons in SOME locations, but there is an exception if you have a CCW license. So really,this just means you can't open carry those weapons in certain areas without a license.

    Here is the full statute:

    "It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor."
     
  20. devildog66

    devildog66 Member

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    Simply utter crappola.
     
  21. ACBMWM3

    ACBMWM3 member

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    I have purchased handgns, long guns and assult weapons in Washington state, also have my carry permit and have NEVER been asked for utilities bills in Washington state...
     
  22. DarkCharisma

    DarkCharisma Member

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    Full of crap, I unless there was some legislation passed in the last 2 months--I picked up my AR in Dec., ordered it in Nov., and was asked for no such thing.
     
  23. MAKster

    MAKster Member

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    The requirement to prove citizenship or legal permanent residency before purchasing an "assault firearm" is a Virginia state law that has been on the books since the early 1990s. It was enacted after Pakistani national Mir Aimal Kasi used an AK-47 to kill two people and wound three others stopped at a traffic light near the entrance to the CIA headquarters in Virginia in 1993. If your second form of ID is a voter registration card you are fine.
     
  24. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

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    I'm glad they ask for proof of US citizenship. We don't need anymore of these ticking time bombs, as noted above, to be screwing things up and giving the anti-gunners more reasons to press hard for gun control. I think they should restrict all gun ownership to US citizens only, not green card holders, perm. residents, etc.

    plus read the news....lot of gun trafficking coming out of the US and into Mexico. We don't need to compound the problem with having non-US citizens buying guns and slipping them out of the country.
     
  25. everallm

    everallm Member

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    Sernv99

    Lets see,

    Green Card holders have had to go through extensive background checks, FBI and criminal checks, education verification, fingerprinting and everything except having a microchip installed.

    They pay taxes, have to register for selective service and so can be called up, have to prove they have been a resident at their home location for at least 90 days every time they fill in a 4473 etc etc.

    And this makes them a "ticking time bomb" ?

    As for

    lot of gun trafficking coming out of the US and into Mexico. We don't need to compound the problem with having non-US citizens buying guns and slipping them out of the country.

    Guess what......generally done by US citizens since they don't have to go through the extra hoops a Green Carder does.
     
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