Rate of fire for bolt action

[ClarkEMyers]

I wouldn't buy a gun just because of the SBS action but I have 2

I wouldn't buy a gun just because of the SBS action but I have 2 - Scout and pseudo-Scout Dragoon for other reasons. The action does solve a lot of problems I don't have. I'd take a Yost-Bonitz custom pseudo-Scout on a classic style Model 70 action if I could make a straight across swap .

I'd say there are many other considerations that confound the discussion. A Mauser 98 with a straight bolt handle can be distinguished from a Mauser 98 with a bolt handle bent for scope for instance. Locked into a tight jacket and glove/sling combination is somewhat different from a field position. Some say use the trigger hand to work the bolt as a straight pull with an open hand flick/flick the bolt and use the hand on the forend to turn the gun while the trigger hand restrains the bolt from turning with the gun but never grasps the bolt. I've know people firing bolt guns over the course with barely visible bolt handle modifications that seemed to suit them perfectly.

 

[Norman Dog]

Another factor...

...to be considered when determining the firing rate of a bolt-action rifle is recoil. When shooting a heavy-recoiling rifle/cartridge combination, it takes longer to recover between shots.

Go to this site:

http://www.470mbogo.com/RecoilVideo.html

and click on the "Rapid Fire" video. This guy gets off three shots from a heavy-recoiling rifle in just about 4 seconds.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

12 gauge pumps can be fired with full loads quite quickly

12 gauge pumps can be fired with full loads quite quickly. As noted above some say stick the trigger hand under the bolt and bring the gun down from recoil with the forend to open the bolt, flick, flick and twist again with the forend for a good speed so the recovery time isn't wasted.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, DF357 and guys,

Three shots in 8 seconds is entirely possible, even with a Carcano, and yes, I have done it. Remember, that is four seconds to reload and aim, quite slow for many people who practice with bolt rifles. (Loading and aiming time for the first shot and unloading time - if any - for the last don't count.)

So far as the SMLE goes, the British used a little trick, grasping the bolt handle with the thumb and forefinger to operate the bolt, then swinging the hand down to operate the trigger with the middle finger. (Yes, I know, I know...) Any rifle whose trigger is further back or further forward or that requires removal of the hand from the bolt to fire is going to be slower.

It is significant that one of the advantages claimed for semi-auto rifles when the adoption of the Garand rifle was being advocated, was not that the semi-auto could be operated faster in aimed fire, but that it could be operated with far less fatigue. In one test of Garands against Springfields, shooters each fired 300 rounds. Garand shooters were ready for more, while the Springfield shooters were so bushed that a couple ended up in the hospital. And these were professional soldiers who had spent all their rifle training with the bolt action.

Jim

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Oswald's shooting - left handed - has been duplicated en masse

IIRC Mas Ayoob has run whole classes through the scenario from scaffolding at a moving target with equipment to duplicate Oswald's and shooting left handed - again IIRC many looked over the scope and reached over to work the bolt left handed and made the shots against the par time.

 

[ALS]

The trick is never lift your cheek off the stock or eye from the scope when operating the bolt. It is all feel with the bolt handle. Put a 1 inch orange pasty on the wall to use as a target. MAKE SURE THE GUN IS EMPTY. Sight in the orange dot and try to keep your cross hairs on it through out the exercise. Squeeze the trigger then turn your palm to 9 O'clock facing up and pick the bolt up pull it back with your ring and pinky finger and push the bolt forward with the base of your thumb and lower inside of your palm and close the bolt. Squeeze off another round and repeat. Remember to concentrate on keeping your cheek against the same spot on the stock through out the exercise. Don't believe me try it with a empty gun and see how fast you can cycle that bolt and squeeze the trigger. Start out slow and increase as you begin to get the rhythm. It takes some practice but you can get pretty quick with that bolt. Some custom Tacticals are now offering the larger bolt handle knob, because sometimes you may need a follow up shot to finish the job.

 

[moa]

I recall an event during WWII where one GI fired almost 1,000 rounds during one engagement using an M1 Garand. I think the exact number of rounds was 976. I believe this in the battle of the Huertgen (sp?) Forest.

976. Wow!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My first tour in Vietnam, I was an adviser to 4/48 ARVN Infantry. My issue M2 carbine got wrapped around a tree, and I bummed a Garand from the ARVN and carried it from then on.

I saw men go into combat with clips all over them -- full cartridge belts, crossed bandoliers, clips in their rucksacks, stuck to their suspenders and helmit covers. And they had no problem shooting up all they could carry.

 

[JNewell]

In the field, water and ammo are both that way.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I always carried a 5-quart collapsable canteen.

 

[hps1]

In highpower rifle competion, rapid fire is ten shots a minute. Bolt actions get no slack vs autos.

As Jim Watson stated, the bolt guns are not cut any slack in HP competition. The 200 yard sitting RF allows 60 seconds for ten rounds, requires one reload (using either stripper clip or detachable magazine) and the shooter is standing until the targets begin to come up, at which time the clock starts and the shooter can assume the sitting position and begin firing. The targets are pulled on command of pit officer at the end of 60 seconds. IIRC, I usually needed between 10-15 seconds to settle into solid position , acquire a natural point of aim (time very well spent) and get the first shot off. First five shots took about 15 seconds, 5-10 seconds for recharging bolt gun w/stripper clip and another 15 seconds for last 5 shots. The other 5 seconds could be used to correct any problems, such as stripper clip dropping a round, other trouble on reload, cleaning fingernails, etc. This was with 30-06 Mod. 70. Have done it with an 03 Springfield, but score was a bit lower due to slower lock time and a bit stiffer action.

The 10 ring is 7" on the 200 yard target and a good shot can usually keep 8-10 shots in the 10 ring sitting RF.

As VH stated, many Palma and Wimbleton shooters do try to get as many shots off as possible before conditions change, but in long range or "slow fire" matches, the shooter is limited by the "pit service" he receives because the target is pulled and a spotter disc inserted in the bullet hole after each shot so bolt manipulation is not really a factor.

Recently practiced for a special hunt where it was important to get quick follow up shot(s) using a 375 h&h Mod 70. standing w/rifle resting on shooting sticks. Found that it was not too difficult to keep all shots in a 12" circle with at least 96% in 6.5" at 100 yards. First shot started clock and each subsequent shot took 3 seconds. While recoil of heavier rifle does require more recovery time, it is still possible to work the bolt and get off well aimed follow-up shots within 3 seconds.

Whether you shoot a bolt gun or a semi-auto, the key is practice, practice, practice...........

Regards,
hps

 

[dogngun]

I came back to bolt rifles after spending way too much money on AK/SKS type rifles. They are fun to shoot, but I was dissapointed in the accuracy. I got spoiled shooting SMLE's,Mausers, and WWI P-17 US Enfield rifles.

My current military rifle is an Israeli Mauser based on a 1938 Sauer action converted to 7.62 NATO.
I'm also looking at a MK4 SMLE.

Mark

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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I came back to bolt rifles after spending way too much money on AK/SKS type rifles. They are fun to shoot, but I was dissapointed in the accuracy
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Comblock weapons were never designed to meet western standards of marksmanship. If you want to blow cheap ammo downrange, they're fine. If you're serious about accuracy, they won't satisfy you.

An exception, of course, is the MN -- which was pre-Revolution.