Rates of Fire

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by COMPNOR, Jul 18, 2016.

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  1. COMPNOR

    COMPNOR Member

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    Good evening,

    Does anyone have good information about rates of fire between semi, lever, pump, and bolt action rifles?

    An individual at another forum has latched onto the fire rate, which is why ARs need to be banned, that similar outcomes to recent shootings wouldn't happen if the shooter used a pump or a lever or a bolt. I think it is a silly argument, but I'm having trouble putting it into words.

    Thanks
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Something like a 98 Mauser or 03 Springfield are hard to run dry as long as you have stripper clips to stuff in the open top.

    The British .303 Enfield was often confused with a machine gun battery when a bunch of Tommys got to cranking out rounds.

    Hard to argue though that the modern rifle uses 30 round mags, is faster to reload, and easier to hold on target during rapid fire.

    That's what 100+ years of firearms development does.

    rc
     
  3. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    In an old army training film, the Garand was touted has having superior rates of fire as a semi over the bolt action, since with the bolt action one had to remove one's hand from the trigger to operate the bolt. Still, a bolt action could be operated pretty quickly --- just not as quickly.
    A lever action helps overcome the necessity of removing the hand and reaching up, but it still removes the finger from the trigger temporarily. During the production of the old TV series The Rifleman actor Chuck Connors was trained how to manually cycle a Winchester 1892 quickly enough to almost simulate semi auto fire by keeping his trigger finger in a specific place, but ultimatly insurance concerns prevented this and the tricked out set screw was introduced into the trigger guard to perform the task .... however, the sequence at the beginning of the intro (where Connors shoots 11 rounds instead of the carbine's normal 10 round capacity due to editing) suggests how fast a lever action might be used.
    I've heard a lot of people argue that if ARs were banned people would only be able to use slower firing weapons and someone might be able to thus overpower a shooter. However, no one seems to "get" that the semi auto AR-15 fires no faster than, say, a WW2 era M-1 carbine, Garand, or other semiauto. Even a double-action revolver can fire plenty fast, though for only 6 rounds.
    A similar argument is made to limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds ...or 8, or 6, or whatever. The idea is that during a mag change someone could run toward the shooter and overpower him.
    What I'd like to see, in any scenario, is someone running TOWARD the shooter. In the Pulse Club, and other mass shootings, it seems that everyone is running away from the shooter.
    Except the police.
    So I rather doubt that banning any weapon will have much effect on anything.
    The Virginia Tech school shooter, Cho, used two handguns rather than an AR-15, and killed more victims in that school shooting than Adam Lanza or others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  4. Keb

    Keb Member

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    I saved an article about 10 years ago, but can only summarize it now. It was about 4 aimed shots. That is the legal capacity for hunting in many states.

    Winner: Semi-auto. About 5 seconds. Then Bolt. Many can do 10 military rounds in about 15 seconds, so about 7 seconds for 4 rounds. Both pumps and levers disturb the sighting, and levers are bad for prone shooting or from typical rests.
     
  5. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Cho used a 9mm handgun (and a backup .22) to kill over 30 students on a college campus. The shooting of Giffords, which you can be sure got the attention of Congress more than the shootings of regular citizens, was done with a handgun.

    Yet such a handgun or even a similar powered carbine can be owned in many places in the world with far stricter gun laws than our own.
    Politicians don't even attempt to call for handgun bans, they have other things they want to go after first and know it would be counter productive.
    They generally do not fear handguns.

    Most gun control legislation has little to do with reducing death rates and more to do with control.
    Effective rifles in the hands of the population are scary. Almost as scary as the founders intended the citizens to be.
    Guns easily defeated by body armor tend to be far less disliked by modern politicians, and don't scare them.


    Most deaths in the country including the vast majority of murders are committed with handguns, not long guns.
    Yet the powers that be are generally not concerned about handguns.
    That should tell you something.
    It is not about how dangerous it is to average people.
    Highly publicized shootings are merely a convenient method to use to ban the guns government is most concerned about.

    The truck attack in France, where an individual decided to drive a truck through crowds of people killed more people than any of our mass shootings, by a significant margin.
    With such coverage it is also likely to be repeated other places.
    Yet nobody is trying to ban tractor trailers or install barricades everywhere.


    Generally gun restrictions and gun free zones are what allow people that ignore the law to kill large numbers of people without much resistance.
    Other people with guns reduce how long someone can act out with impunity.
    Laws that insure those following the law won't have a gun someplace are what allow someone with a gun or something else in those places to act with impunity for longer periods of time.



    Rate of fire also has plays a key role in modern fire team tactics. With most of the rounds being used to suppress the opposition while others maneuver. You can be sure removing that from the 'militia' or the body of the people as the founders intended puts them at a severe disadvantage to all modern threats


    In addition semi autos tend to be the platform most user friendly to the average person. Gas operated and even recoil operated arms have less perceived recoil, and the gun going bang when the trigger is pulled each time makes the most sense without requiring some other action in addition for each shot.
    Those not into shooting for recreation, including a lot of women will find a semi auto long gun or hand gun (and a double action revolver is similar) easier to fire than another action type. I have shown new shooters different firearms, and it is the semi auto that is generally perceived as the normal and straightforward gun, especially if they don't look like a military gun (aesthetics).
    While a lever action, single action only revolver, pump action, or other action seem foreign and less comfortable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  6. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN Pushing the pendulum back before it's too late.

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    ^ Very well put together. I especially liked....

    ...and...

    Terry, 230RN
     
  7. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    For what it may be worth:



    No semi-autos involved.
     
  8. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I've done some drills at the range while being timed. I was able to get 3 rounds downrange un-aimed, just shooting downrange as fast as I could in the following times.

    308 Winchester 70 1.8 seconds
    30-30 Marlin lever 1.5 seconds
    44 mag Marlin lever 1.3 seconds
    12 ga Rem 870 pump .75 seconds
    223 AR semi-auto .5 seconds

    Since I don't have a pump rifle I substituted the shotgun

    When I repeated the test with the requirement that all 3 shots had to hit a 9" paper plate at 50 yards I got the following.

    Bolt 308 3.9 seconds
    lever 30-30 4.2 seconds
    lever 44 mag 4.1 seconds
    AR 223 2.6 seconds

    I didn't test the shotgun for accuracy.
     
  9. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    You can shoot ten aimed shots with an SMLE (No 1) or No 4 in fifteen to twenty seconds, faster with a practice.

    With a straight-pull, like a Ross or a Steyr-Mannlicher, you can get off five aimed shots in five or six seconds.

    If you practice, reloading an Enfield can be done with astonishing rapidity, a Ross, is a bit more finicky.

    The enbloc clip of a Steyr-Mannlicher makes reloading so quick and easy there is almost no perceived gap in firing.
     
  10. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Rates of fire of different firearms is an interesting subject. (We're talking about guns here :)) Trying to justify owning an AR based on the idea that there are other weapons or action types with a similar rate of fire is a fools errand though. The reason we're supposed to own guns in this country is to keep the government nervous and in their place. That's what the 2A is for. Semi auto's are the best we can get at this time to do that since our 2A right to full auto military weapons has been infringed upon.
     
  11. COMPNOR

    COMPNOR Member

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    I'm not trying to justify ownership. I'm trying to show that ROF is irrelevant.

    It doesn't matter what we think the 2A is. Perception matters just as much as reality. And saying I can own X because of what the 2A is might be fine for us, but to the uninformed and uneducated it isn't.

    I want to educate.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
     
  12. edmo01

    edmo01 Member

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    Not to discount the OP's question, but arguments over rate of fire are truly irrelevant and are a side show to the ultimate goal of the anti-gun crowd...

    The anti crowd wants to take away ALL guns, but until they subvert the Constitution they have to settle with their little victories. Rates of fire; Magazine capacities; "Why do you 'need' that (gun, caliber, etc) for hunting"; "The founding fathers were only talking about muskets"... Death by a thousand paper cuts.

    Currently, we have that pesky Second Ammendment preventing them from a total ban, so the grabbers are limited to chipping away at the edges.

    Just remember the next president will appoint several new members to the Supreme Court. The decisions of these new justices will affect the course of our country for decades to come.

    I thoroughly encourage "converting" friends, family, and coworkers from the dark side and enlightening them to our Constitutionally affirmed rights. We need all citizens to understand this and why our country's founders felt it was important enough to put on paper.

    However, more importantly we must make sure all who support our Constitution GET OUT AND VOTE this November. The future of our country depends on it!

    Edmo
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  13. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I've had many similar exchanges. Youtube videos of fast lever-action and pump-action shooters are the best way to go.

    Another point you may want to make is that some law enforcement studies show that a victim gets shot in a typical mass shooting event once every 15 seconds or so. (One source: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local-govt-politics/packed-house-for-active-shooting-seminar/npgMH/ ) At those rates of injury, "rate of fire" isn't really a factor... but response time sure is.
     
  14. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Rate of fire doesn't have a major effect on a shooter's ability to kill. Bolt, lever, or pump, the weapon can be recharged quickly enough that someone can acquire another target fast enough to fire again. It's why the lever gun was originally called "that gun you can load on Sunday and shoot all week long." In .44. a Henry held 16 rounds.

    As said above, the crowd of victims largely runs away - as did those openly carrying rifles at one shooting. They, in fact, sought out police officers to hand over their weapons in order to be safe from return fire.

    While an interesting discussion, rate of fire as an argument against military sporting arms is based on their belief the user just sprays rounds into a crowd. In the case of a lot of cop shooters that isn't what they were doing at all, and terrorists seem to use aimed fire in victim zones, too.

    Nobody is going to try to jump a shooter who's changing a magazine unless they are extremely close and have confidence in their bare hand martial arts skills. It takes presence of mind and experience to do that, which most citizens don't have in the initial reaction to a shooting incident.

    It's only an interesting discussion in a gun forum, for the anti gunner it's a feature to take out of context as an evil thing.
     
  15. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

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    I recently watch a video on you tube on mag capacity and the like. One test was how far could someone get toward the shooter once they ran out of ammo and reload. The distance was 20 feet and once the shooter was out of ammo the one charge with tackling the shooter got 10 feet before the shooter reloaded.
     
  16. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    But it is relevant depending on the specific situation. A semi auto is the best, easiest to use and simplest tool for shooting multiple people or firing multiple rounds in a short period of time. Thats one reason why the vast majority of police departments in the US use semi auto rifles rather than pump actions. Trying to use the argument that other types of weapons would produce the same number of casualties in an active killer situation (even if that's true, which of course is impossible to conclusively prove) will only backfire on you and cause people to consider banning your pumps and lever guns as well. That would be the logical conclusion.
     
  17. COMPNOR

    COMPNOR Member

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    Perhaps. But thumping our chests and crying 2A isn't doing a lot of good either. In my opinion anyway.



    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
     
  18. COMPNOR

    COMPNOR Member

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    And if they want to ban everything that's fine. They are entitled to their opinion and desires.

    I've only ever asked that they know what they're talking about and be consistent. And preferably work to change the 2A through an amendment process and not legislation.

    It's like calling the AR a weapon of war, but ignoring the Remington 700. Or calling ARs high powered when your typically hunting rifle is a lot more high powered.

    Basically I just want people to admit they don't like guns or think people should own them instead of this if it just saves one life sound byte garbage.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
     
  19. Haxby

    Haxby Member

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    Predicting "similar outcomes to recent shootings."
    These are made up numbers, sustained fire for 1 minute, roughly aimed, reloads carried on body.
    AR15, 60 rounds should be no problem. There would be a few seconds when the shooter had an unloaded gun.
    Winchester 70, Marlin 1894, Remington 7600, hard to picture anybody getting off more than 20 rounds. Maybe 30 seconds in the first minute that the shooter would reloading, giving victims opportunity to attack or escape.
     
  20. Acera

    Acera Member

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    Back to the OPs question.

    I have seen shooters shoot a slide action shotgun (pump) faster than a semi-automatic can cycle. It takes practice, but can be done. Can't give you the cyclic rate on that, but a lot of casings were in the air at the same time. Pretty sure someone on here can do it, and may have a shot timer.
     
  21. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Everyone seems to love buzz words, the media, politicians, etc.

    Today it's "assault rifles". Tomorrow it will be semi-autos. Next "levers of destruction", followed by "pump machine guns".

    Eventually it'll be "single shots of death".

    There will never be an end to it until there are no more guns. Rapid rate of fire is just a euphanism for you shouldn't have a gun at all.
     
  22. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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  23. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I think the fastest shot to shot split time I have ever seen was Bob Munden and a single action revolver.

    Start around 2:30 in this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsU5AMxvlKg
     
  24. bassdogs

    bassdogs Member

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    Totally agree and if you assume an average skilled shooter, the rounds fired in a minute with an AR is easily in the numbers you suggest. Yes one of the trick shooters or some of the best 3 gunners can unload a pump or lever action in a blurr but that's not going to happen with the average shooter. It shouldn't escape notice that the 2 recent cop shooters were ex military and used military tactics to increase the kill rate rather than just rate of fire. A 30 round AR in the right hands with some relevant military training is 10 times more potent than the average range zombie shooter.
     
  25. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Not that it makes any difference but neither used an AR.
     
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