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RBCD Ammo

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by usnavymasterchief, Jun 12, 2003.

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  1. usnavymasterchief

    usnavymasterchief member

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    Anyone know of a RBCD Ammunition website? I personally don't know much about this product. I have read that it is ultra high performance stuff, any comments pro or con would be appreciated.
     
  2. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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  3. usnavymasterchief

    usnavymasterchief member

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    Hi YZGUY, Have you ever tried this ammo in one of your KT P32 or P11? John W.
     
  4. tetchaje1

    tetchaje1 Member

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    At $2 a round it gets pretty expensive to function test your guns for it. Besides, testing on Ammolab and by Doc Roberts on Tactical Forums was pretty lackluster.

    FWIW, of all the fragible ammo out there, the Glaser Silver seems to be the best choice for limited penetration scenarios like home defense.
     
  5. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Another vote here for Glaser Silvers, in most cases. If your caliber and barrel length has a LOT of velocity to play with, like a 6" barrel 357 or a 4"+ 44Maggie, the Glaser Blues have merit.

    "Silver" means larger lead shot, while "blues" have smaller. The plastic nosecones are color-coded to allow instant ID.

    The Magsafe Defenders are pretty good too - they use a large steel shot. They have a "souped up monster" for 38snubbies that'll pull 1,600fps from a 2" barrel :D.

    I recommend no more than two or three frangibles "first at bat", to be following by good 38+P hollowpoints of some sort.
     
  6. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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    usnavymasterchief,
    nope.... I don't have a place around I can shoot stuff and see what happends (indoor ranges tend to frown on that!!).

    If I find a place that I can play with stuff in the future, I may try it out if for nothing else than to satisfy my own couriosity... but as was mentioned before, function testing it would get VERY expensive if I ever wanted to carry it...
     
  7. 9x19

    9x19 member

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  8. Jeff OTMG

    Jeff OTMG Member

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    RBCD is $37 per box of 20, much cheaper than MagSafe or Glaser. In my experience it is also more reliable and it operates at standard pressures. Joe Zambone blew up many guns developing some MagSafe loads. I question the throughness of Ammolab testing since they only fired 3 rounds. Of course they are not too happy with RBCD since they had to buy it rather than have it given to them.
     
  9. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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  10. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    Well you're quite welcome to prove AmmoLab wrong by performing your own tests and publishing the results for everyone to see.
    A tester that has to purchase ammunition, instead of it being supplied for free from the manufacturer, is going to have more credibility to me. There is no conflict of interest. The tester is not beholden to the manufacturer, is an independent voice, and is less likely to present a biased position so as to not offend the manufacturer lest it affect the freebies. A refreshing change from the good ol' boy network so common in the gun industry.
    Your honesty is appreciated. At least we know where you're coming from.

    Cheers!
     
  11. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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    I think he was referring to the fact that many other ammo companies gave them ammo, but RBCD did not, so the tester may have been more critical of them because they had to buy them, and a bit easier on the "free ones".

    The part I have a problem with in the ammo lab testing is if they fired 3 rounds, and the first 2 did not expand, they only tell you about the one that did. The fact that 2 out of three did not expand is of major importance to me, and the rest of the data is second to that and without this of no use to me....
     
  12. Coltdriver

    Coltdriver Member

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    I am and have been a huge fan of RBCD since I first discovered it.

    For ammolab to make any claim about any ammo with a test consisting of three rounds completely blows ammolabs creditability with me. It is well known in gun circles that the ammolab people were frosted about having to pay for the ammo they used and to give them any creditability is at best (IMNSHO)shallow.

    There are numerous examples of one shot stops on both this forum and over on TFL on charging hogs and large dogs with RBCD. How about a single shot stop on a 200 pound hog with a single 9mm round? Police and especially Federal Agencys are using the ammo.

    The destructive capability of this ammo is far beyond the effect of any pre fragged ammo like mag safe. Not knocking mag safe, it is just a different ammo.

    I have heard this reliability argument before. Who here has fired 200+ rounds of mag safe through your weapon to verify functionality?? The RBCD has the shape and profile of a regular hardball round. I have never experienced a feeding failure in my .380's, 9mm's, .40's or .45's.

    Try to ammo out yourself on a soft target. You will be absolutely shocked at the results. The explosive effect of the ammo when fired from a Colt Pony in .380 will put a fist size hole in a ham.

    Check out the product at www.rbcd.net.

    I am ordering a box of their 30.06 for this hunting season.
     
  13. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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    Yes I put 200 rounds of Golden Sabers through my P-11 before I carried them.... No it did not cost me more the price of my pistol...

    Also I would want to heavily test this ammo in my pistol because it is FAR more different than my practice round (it is VERY light), to make sure it cycled correctly. I have heard a couple of reports that the RBCD ammo has caused the ONLY malfunctions in a couple of guns.

    here is a pic by a person I believe to be 100% credible of an 9mm RBCD shot into jello from a P-11:
    [​IMG]

    more tests can be found here:
    http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm

    Penetration 8.0
    Expansion 2.1

    quote from his site:
    expansion is actually area of dispersion
    2" wide, 5" deep area was completely pulverized


    While that is impressive, the real damage only goes about 5 inches, and the max penetration is only 8. What happened to all the penetration people who say that the P-32 is not enough to use HP's because you only get about 8 inches of penetration? I realize that the RBCD is much more devastating in that 8 inches, but the fact still remains that if you don't get to anything to stop them it is no good. Eventually dieing does not help us....

    I'm not totally against it, but would be much more impressed if it held together for a couple of inches and made the diameter of damage a bit smaller, but deeper (same energy, just split up a bit different).
     
  14. 22luvr

    22luvr Member

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    Hot stuff in a P32.................

    I shot a box of 20 through my P32 and got 19 out of 20 to feed perfectly. Had one FTF but since my P32 was a very early one, the addition of stiffer recoil springs probably would have prevented it. It was accurate, and the recoil very brisk and NO rimlocks.

    It is not anything like the other pre-fragmented rounds; it is patented and consists of a highly compressed multi-metal powder in a matrix. There are two layers: the point of the projectile looks and rubs like graphite and there is another layer underneath and the whole thing is encased in a thin metal jacket, all but the tip. They are properly called "TFSP's" (totally fragmenting soft points)
    I read the entire patent report on them and as a layman still could not figure out how they were put together!

    Critics talk about lack of penetration but the stuff can be scientifically tinkered with to give as much or as little penetration as is necessary for the application. As far as stopping power, when you can blow a hole in a target big enough to put your foot through, that's gets the recipient into big-time immediate damage control. I have no qualms about this stuff doing the job.

    As research and development improves this ammo, I still think it is the defense ammo of the future.....IMHO.
     
  15. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Would someone tell me just which federal & state agencies are using this ammo?

    I've heard this claim but have seen no way to verify it...:scrutiny:
     
  16. agtman

    agtman Member

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    RBCD 10mm ammo.


    Shot at clay blocks, the 10mm/77gn TFSP @ 2420fps/1015fpe left some unbelievably huge blown-out cavities - literally gaping craters - as shown in an article Cirillo wrote a while back. I'd like to run some thru my 10mms.

    Has the 77gn 10mm load ever been tested in standard ballistic gelatin?

    RBCD's 10mm platinum ammo produced the highest energy rating, while their 90gn .45acp, @ 2036fps/828fpe, runs a distant second.

    With that level of fpe produced, you wonder how much of the BG would even be left after a COM hit?

    That's why I'm curious whether RBCD's devastating performance on clay blocks was ever duplicated in gelatin.
     
  17. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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    you want to know why they use clay?? because the results LOOK much worse than they do in Gel... Gel acts a little like human tissue in that it will expand some and go back into shape, clay on the other hand does not. The RBCD ammo does stretch out a much larger area than most other rounds, but in flesh (and gel) much of that area will snap back into place and not be affected much.

    While still impressive, I think the results would be about half if seen in gel as opposed to Clay....

    I would still want to test it myself on a few different things and one of these days may get around to it.
     
  18. Jeff OTMG

    Jeff OTMG Member

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    Clay was used because it is easier to see the results. I don't think it was because it looks worse, since the competitor's load is fired into the same size block right next to it. As was stated, the gel blows up, but snaps back. You will be glad to know that all the loads have been fired into gelatin blocks while being filmed with a high speed digital video camera. The same camera NASA is using to do research on the space shuttle damage. The video was due out this summer, but due to Roscoe's recent death the release will be delayed, but when it comes out there will be some gel shots for everyone.
     
  19. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Well the good thing about frangibles is "there's no such thing as too hot" - the faster you drive 'em, the better they work, period.

    I have no doubt at all that 10mm RBCDs will be nasty. The 44Mag will border on "death ray".

    It's in the 32ACPs, 38snubbies and such that I have concerns about lack of penetration.
     
  20. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    Clay preserves the maximum temporary cavity. It exaggerates the wounding effects of bullets designed to quickly transfer energy to the target.
    In my opinion, high speed cinematography is more smoke and mirrors intended to exaggerate the wounding effects of handgun cartridge temporary cavitation.
     
  21. Sprout

    Sprout Member

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    Thanks for the picture and link yzguy. Very useful page.
     
  22. Shmackey

    Shmackey Member

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    I'm with Jim. The high-tech ammo makes tons of sense in big-??? guns. I wish I got to toy with some in my Model 29 before I sold it.
     
  23. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    The ultimate would be to drive a carved nylon 40grain double-ended wadcutter out of a 454Casull at around 4,000fps :p.

    Hit some moron with that at "across the room" range and dear God, it'd be like "cleanup on aisle one, somebody get a MOP!"

    It'd look like he swallowed half a stick o' TNT.
     
  24. 22luvr

    22luvr Member

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    One more time: that penetration thing....

    Does over 2,000 FPS and 500+ lbs of energy raise your eyebrows? Yikes. That's what an RBCD 9mm generates.

    Let's go over this "penetration" thingie again. The idea in self defense is to get the perp to "stop" assaulting you. I'm certainly no expert but I tend to think that one RBCD round hitting at C.O.M. and blowing a hole big enough to put your fist through would certainly tend to "stop" even a very determined perp and get him into immediate and serious damage control assessment, giving you, the victim, a chance to clear the area immediately or put another couple of whopper holes in said perp!

    Having been seriously injured more than once in my lifetime, that sort of trauma has a paralyzing effect on the recipient. Have you ever taken a good blow to the kneecap? Instant bodily paralysis. Creating a gaping C.O.M. wound, I feel, would have a similar result.

    Just another laymen's opinion that I feel has a bit of truth in it somewhere.
     
  25. yzguy

    yzguy Member

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    I was trying to say that clay looks worse (or better) for the RBCD ammo because of the way it works. A normal HP does not "explode" (for lack of a better term) like the RBCD does. A HP just expands so there is not as much of a violent disturbance. My point is that using clay misrepresents the differences between the HP's and the RBCD because human tissue will rebound quite a bit, and clay does not, so the RBCD hole in clay is misleading (because much of that area if it were tissue would be virtually unharmed) where as all of the area from the HP bullet in the clay would be damaged.

    So they basically used the material that will make their product look the best while making their competitors look the worst. Prior to this I had not even heard of anyone using clay for testing (not saying I looked, I just had not heard of it). Gel is supposed to at least roughly imitate flesh, what is clay supposed to imitate? what useful information do we get from shooting clay??

    Sorry but I don't care about the high speed shot of how much the gel expanded (the shot that will surely be released because it looks the worst) what I want is more of what I posted, a still shot of the results AFTER it came back to rest.

    Again I'm not saying I'm against it, just kinda skeptical. Because of the problems I have heard of it causing, gunsmiths recommending against using it, tremendous cost of testing, and all the hype only showing the Temporary results, not the permanent ones.
     
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