Read about some betrayal in Wisconsin

[jfh]

Further, any sort of minimal political analysis

shows that this kind of law functions as a template: the NEXT time there is some firearms incident that incites public uproar, all that the politicians have to do is to direct that firearms that now become illegal are those whose power exceeds that of the "most recent weapon used," as it were.

And, since this nut in the latest tragedy used a .22LR, then the standards shall be revised to limit all ammunition and firearms available to the public to be less destructive than a .22 short.



Tell me, Ransom, at what level do you define the limitations of regulation for effective ownership and use of firearms?

Is it when you can keep your .30-30, but it is locked at the local police armory and only available to you two days before hunting season begins?

Is it when your Perazzi O/U is subject to a buy-back, because a prominent politician's wife just used it to kill her husband?

Is it when John Kerry changes his mind and says. "I'm not a hunter anymore; I've decided I don't like killing things." He then joins with the majority of Senators in drafting a bill that directs the AG to define all illegal firearms and ammunition as that having more power than a .22 short. The President has indicated he will sign such a bill--after all, the public is demanding it, and we have to do it for the safety of the public. And, the AG has indicated he will promptly rewrite the regulations and commence enforcing this bill in 90 days.

 

[Ransom]

Tell me, Ransom, at what level do you define the limitations of regulation for effective ownership and use of firearms?

I dont think there should be any limitations to firearm ownership. I own and carry and shoot and I'm a steadfast supporter of the 2nd amendment.

I dont support this bill, nor do I support Kerry's views on gun ownership.

I'm just looking for the truth. The claim was made that John Kerry voted for the banning of all centerfire rifle ammunition. Now, the bill sets fairly strict standards for what centerfire rifle ammo can be banned. It only effects rifle ammo that is "designed or marketed to be AP". That isnt all centerfire rifle ammo. So that claim is incorrect.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Ransom: "quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm calling a spade a spade.
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By assuming what the man believes. Which is wrong. Yes, he beleives in gun control, but that doesnt mean he believe in outlawing all firearms and hunting. If you want to believe that its your buisness, I'm just telling you you're wrong and would rather stereotype someone based on what he believes. shrug."

When I referred to spades, I was talking about you, not Kerry.

Have a nice life.

 

[jefnvk]

He's either too ignorant or too dumb to understand. Or maybe he sees his mistake, and is too embarassed because he is too far in to back out gracefully. The point is, ANY ammo deemed able to penetrate a police vest can be banned at any time. The police I know wear vests that are probably incapable of stopping a 9mm or a .45 at 5 yards. A .30-30 is not quite on the top of the power scale as far as rifles go. Who's to say, for example, that an 8mm FMJ isn't armor piercing. Never tried shooting through metal with it, but I have put it through over a foot of wood. And FMJ is quite often marketed as armor-piercing at gun shows and such, so there is a prime example.

 

[Ransom]

The point is, ANY ammo deemed able to penetrate a police vest can be banned at any time.

But according to this bill it must either be "designed or marketed" as armour piercing to even be tested. And even then its tested agianst another bullet of the same caliber and it has to be more armour piercing than the standard.

So is the argument that the AG could be completely corrupt and lie and falisfy the fact that something is designed to be AP when it isnt?

 

[R.H. Lee]

Yes, he beleives in gun control, but that doesnt mean he believe in outlawing all firearms and hunting.

That statement contradicts itself. Gun control IS outlawing firearms. Since hunting is done with firearms, it would also be outlawed. Besides which hunting has NOTHING to do with 2A.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The bottom line is the only centerfire rifle ammo this whole amendment effects are ammo that is designed or marketed to be AP.

Or any centerfire rifle ammo that is used in a handgun. Do you know what a Thompson Contender is?

Tell me how that effect any ammo unless it says AP on the box or the manufacturer designed it to be AP?

Well, in addition to the examples I have given above where definitions were changed to suit the current administration, let's look at some marketing for common hunting ammo. Here is a website advertising Lapua hunting bullets

"the Naturalis retains nearly 100% of its weight even in bone hits – an important advantage because a higher residual weight necessarily correlates with a more powerful shock effect, improved penetration and less meat loss."

"Mega - superb penetration and bullet expansion"

"This bullet is at its best in the field and its penetration is matched by its quadruple expansion on impact"

Now how easy would it be for the same Administration that tried to use HUD to sue S&W into submission to argue that this is marketing a bullet with AP capability - especially when several of those bullets would slice through even the heaviest vest like a hot knife through butter?

 

[Ransom]

That statement contradicts itself. Gun control IS outlawing firearms. Since hunting is done with firearms, it would also be outlawed. Besides which hunting has NOTHING to do with 2A.

Read what you quoted. I said all firearms, duder.

 

[Ransom]

Now how easy would it be for the same Administration that tried to use HUD to sue S&W into submission to argue that this is marketing a bullet with AP capability - especially when several of those bullets would slice through even the heaviest vest like a hot knife through butter?

There is a key word left out of all of those. Guess which it is. Even then if you tested the same bullets(same caliber and so forth) would one be considered to be more armour piercing than the other)?


edit: Either way the bottom line is the point "Kerry voted to ban all centerfire rifle ammo" is false. So I've made my argument and I'm happy with it. I'm done.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So is the argument that the AG could be completely corrupt and lie and falisfy the fact that something is designed to be AP when it isnt?

Well, you tell me. I've given examples of how one SecTreas determines a rifle has "suitable sporting purpose" and the next determines it doesn't. Nothing changed in the law and both cited the same law for their authority.

One determines a gun is just a shotgun, the next determines it is a "Destructive Device" on par with automatic cannons, grenade launchers and missiles.

There is no shortage of examples of how different bureaucrats working for different administrations interpret statutes differently, yet you seem to feel this isn't a serious threat despite the vague and broad language granting a LOT of power to the AG here.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Even then if you tested the same bullets(same caliber and so forth) would one be considered to be more armour piercing than the other)?

Of course - a ballistic tip would penetrate less than a softpoint which would penetrate less than an FMJ which would penetrate less than a bonded core bullet or a copper solid. There are a whole range of bullet types in every caliber and performance varies wildly based on what their designed for. The same design that lets you break an elk's shoulder at 300yds is also going to let you zip right through very heavy vests.

Was it "Designed to be armor-piercing"? Well, it pierces the heaviest level of body armor offered and it was designed to penetrate deeply wasn't it?

Either way the bottom line is the point "Kerry voted to ban all centerfire rifle ammo" is false. So I've made my argument and I'm happy with it. I'm done.

You also keep neglecting all of the handgun ammo that would have been banned by this bill. Is that of no consequence to legitimate gun owners?

Kerry voted for a bill which could easily be used to ban all centerfire ammo and which the author of the bill expressly said on the Senate floor was for the purpose of banning the most common hunting rifle caliber used in the U.S. That is a fact. If you want to argue the 98% vs. 100% distinction again, feel free but don't expect a warm reception from most gun owners over that difference.

 

[Ieyasu]

Ransom,

You've probably moved on, but here goes anyways...

Ransom wrote:

Either way the bottom line is the point "Kerry voted to ban all centerfire rifle ammo" is false. So I've made my argument and I'm happy with it. I'm done.

I'm glad you're happy but you're mistaken. Your response ignored Bartholomew Robert's question:

Or any centerfire rifle ammo that is used in a handgun. Do you know what a Thompson Contender is?

Perhaps you don't know what a Thompson Contender is. (It's a pistol).

From the proposed bill:

''(iii) a projectile that may be used in a
handgun and that the Attorney General determines,
pursuant to section 926(d), to be
capable of penetrating body armor;"

What the above means is that any ammunition that may be used in a handgun, REGARDLESS of whether it was designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, authorizes the AG to ban it.

I've seen barrels, in the following calibers, offered for the Thompson Contender: 223, 22-250, .243, 25-06, .270 WIN, .380, 7mm-08, and 30-06.

Oh, and I almost forgot, the 30-30.

Sure, that's not ALL centerfire rifle ammo, but that isn't what you meant, is it? (Rhetorical question.)

Ransom also wrote:

In fact, I think when it comes to firearms Bush and Kerry are pretty much one the exact same level.

Hopefully after reading the evidence that other posters have left here, you no longer believe that statement to be accurate. Two examples other posters mentioned: Bush signed shall-issue CCW legislation as governor of Texas, and Bush would sign legislation granting gun manufacturers immunity from frivolous lawsuits. Kerry would veto such legislation.