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Real ID. Senate goes for it tomorrow, Tues 10th.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by dog3, May 9, 2005.

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  1. dog3

    dog3 Member

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    So, H.R.418 moves to the Senate.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.418:

    Assume it passes, that's pretty much it.

    National ID. Done. Finished.

    Without even touching on the whole "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand, , , " part of the whole fun, let's just take a look.

    This is it people.

    And no one is even paying attention.

    I find it remarkable.

    Sad, yes, but remarkable none the less.

    Good day brothers. It's been fun.
    But the end of privacy is the end of freedom.

    Take that to the bank. It's a sure bet.

    ---me
     
  2. mons meg

    mons meg Member

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  3. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

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    It is sad. Nobody wants to hear it. Nobody cares. They have their cable, and the newest, biggest SUV's, so they figure everything's ok.
    Ah, well. write your congressthings, boys and girls. Call them.
     
  4. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Well, dang. :(


    We'll see what happens.
     
  5. Dionysusigma

    Dionysusigma Member

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    [​IMG]

    "That's it, man! We're finished! We're done! Game over, man! GAME OVER!"

    We've had National IDs for a long time now. This just makes it official. ;) :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  6. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    :scrutiny:


    I can walk around without an ID of any kind. With the national ID, if I was asked by a police officer to present it, I'd have to.

    I think that's a big difference, even if it's a small one compared to the rest.
     
  7. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Okay, I've read the bill ... and gone back over the driver licensing requirements for my state (RCW 46.20) ... Frankly, I'm not seeing that anything is changing other than the federal government requiring the few remaining primitive states to upgrade their driver license databases and start using the same standards for issuance that most states already use.

    This is not a national ID, it's simply your state-issued (albeit to new federal standards) driver license; for heaven's sake, where does it state in HR 418 that you now have to present it (assuming you have not been driving a motor vehicle)?

    Does anyone really think they have privacy now? Where have you guys been?
     
  8. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    It's simple really-FEDERAL control over a STATE issued form of ID.

    Right now not to much of a biggie-
    But wait 'til big brother wants biometric info as one of the "federal" standards. OK you're a bad boy, so you say "screw 'em!!!! I won't do it!!"

    That's all well and good-
    But now you have no "official" ID. Now stop and think what for and when you have to use official ID.

    Think it's far fetched? Hell, we have one state that wants to serialize individual bullets!!!!!! :banghead: :banghead: :cuss:

    edit:
    BTW: E-mail sent, phone call made!!!
     
  9. nico

    nico Member

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    I don't really see what's so bad about this bill either. If a driver's license is accepted as a universal form of identification, which it is, then why not have some universal standards for issuing one? I admit I'm not completely educated on the bill, and I'm perfectly receptive to having my mind changed. But, I see nothing wrong with things like requiring that a person be here legally to get a driver's license.
     
  10. dustind

    dustind Member

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    All a drivers license should have is a picture of the person and a rating as to what they are be able to drive. No names, SS numbers, DOB, address, and so on.

    This will make it harder to secure privacy in the future. I expect more "your papers please" in the future. Sadly most people do not even remember why everyone was against "your papers please" in the past. For that matter, when was the last time someone said "its a free country?" I have not heard that one in many years. All I hear now is, "we are better than China/Iraq."
     
  11. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    I'll go with you on the SSN. No reason for that to be on there. I could probably go with you on telephone number too.

    However, having no name, no address? When the cop pulls you over, how do you expect him to write tickets? Suspend licenses?

    As for DOB, what else would be used to prove age? Do you want me to carry around my birth certificate (which would be pretty useless, if the picture id has no name on it). Maybe we can issue another form of ID?
     
  12. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    Hmmm...

    The bill does not make any mention of telephone numbers.

    Verification of SSAN is required as part of the issuance process, but the SSAN is not listed as one of the items on the license.
     
  13. cfabe

    cfabe Member

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    The real probelm with the bill is that it establishes a master database of all ID information, and requires states to submit all of their information into the master database. The protections of use of this data are weak at best. It will only be a matter of time before your insurance carrier drops you because you visit the local bar too often (since they'll be scanning your new ID to verifiy your age, regardless of how old you are)
     
  14. Selfdfenz

    Selfdfenz Member

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    For those that think this will be no more than a federally controled set of standards for drivers licenses you are just being foolish.

    Not in the context this will be usued. Not hardly!

    Gents I will just refer you to a history lesson that begins with the words "Social Security".

    Please point me in the direction of one single federal program of any kind that didn't morph in a CF of one sort or another and I will rethink my position.
    Prepare to start living a darn clean life fellas cause you will not be ble to outrun a $2 parking ticket or a library fine in the near future. Without your "card" you may not be able to write a check or use a credit card let alone get on a plane.

    Biometrics in 5 years tops. Chips in 7 but not manditory at first....just offered as a convenience.

    Here is the eternal irony of it all. Those BGs in foreign lands that what to kill us ....the ones this program will keep at bay.....those guys will pretty soon be living freer lives than us. Their countries and their governemnts are imposing none of this. These programs are all about the government controlling >YOU<.

    In a program advertised as trying to save us and our wonderful way of freedom and life, Scrub Inc is doing more harm to our freedoms and way of life than the BGs ever have or ever could.

    The BGs will go away some day, all on their own, but what Bush leaves behind will only get worse, especially if the wrong man or woman ends up in the WH and given the recent candidate choices, how far down the road can that be?
    S-
     
  15. saltydog

    saltydog Member

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    Like I said. People turn their heads and move on. :(
     
  16. Alex45ACP

    Alex45ACP Member

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    It's only a matter of time until these are implanted. It will be voluntary at first, and everyone will laud the "safety", "security" and "convenience" of them... :barf:

    Then, it will become mandatory, and anyone who questions it will be labeled a "traitor" and a "terrorist" :rolleyes:

    I'm starting to wonder if there even are any BGs...
     
  17. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    There are. Most of them hold public office.

    - Chris
     
  18. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    "I can walk around without an ID of any kind. With the national ID, if I was asked by a police officer to present it, I'd have to."

    Do you really think that officers need to see your ID to confirm you are licensed to operate the vehicle you are in? They haven't for a long time, information revolution. In the old days that piece of paper was the only timely way to confirm that you passed the driving test, now it's not.

    The funny thing is that those people who wanted police to relent on some old practices are Anarchists, and Anti-Authority, and of course they just hate cops. So if you suggested that people didn't need to carry licenses on them anymore you were 'out to make the officer's lives harder'. Instead of information technologies freeing us of budens, we handed control to the officers and the legislators, and they pushed even further. Now we're here.

    All we had to do was stand up to their verbal harassment. So they called us names, we should not have let them get as far as they have. Whatever.
     
  19. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    What's the big deal?

    All I see in the bill that is objectionable is the use of the Social Security Number.

    Other than that, it just tightens the requirements for ID to acquire a Driver's License, and mandates a digital photo which is easily watermarked and hence harder to counterfeit.

    Mark of the Beast? hardly.
     
  20. dog3

    dog3 Member

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    Good ole Saltydog said;

    "Like I said. People turn their heads and move on."

    Wow, they really do, don't they?

    I gotta admit, I'm a little suprised. But not really suprised.
     
  21. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    REAL ID Bad for Cops & Judges, Too (No Bull)

    Link to article. It has lots of links to other articles.

    (All italics & bold in article are my additions--jfruser)

    Why is it bad for Cops & Judges?

    May 09, 2005
    REAL ID

    The United States is getting a national ID card. The REAL ID Act (text of the bill and the Congressional Research Services analysis of the bill) establishes uniform standards for state driver's licenses, effectively creating a national ID card. It's a bad idea, and is going to make us all less safe. It's also very expensive. And it's all happening without any serious debate in Congress.

    I've already written about national IDs. I've written about the fallacies of identification as a security tool. I'm not going to repeat myself here, and I urge everyone who is interested to read those two essays (and even this older essay). A national ID is a lousy security trade-off, and everyone needs to understand why.

    Aside from those generalities, there are specifics about REAL ID that make for bad security.

    The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier. Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom. It actually doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial databases with the same information.

    Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).

    REAL ID requires that driver's licenses contain actual addresses, and no post office boxes. There are no exceptions made for judges or police -- even undercover police officers. This seems like a major unnecessary security risk.

    REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help anyone's security. (This is an interesting insecurity, and is a direct result of trying to take a document that is a specific permission to drive an automobile, and turning it into a general identification device.)

    REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of complying with REAL ID will be $120 million. That's $120 million that can't be spent on actual security.

    And the wackiest thing is that none of this is required. In October 2004, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 was signed into law. That law included stronger security measures for driver's licenses, the security measures recommended by the 9/11 Commission Report. That's already done. It's already law.

    REAL ID goes way beyond that. It's a huge power-grab by the federal government over the states' systems for issuing driver's licenses.

    REAL ID doesn't go into effect until three years after it becomes law, but I expect things to be much worse by then. One of my fears is that this new uniform driver's license will bring a new level of "show me your papers" checks by the government. Already you can't fly without an ID, even though no one has ever explained how that ID check makes airplane terrorism any harder. I have previously written about Secure Flight, another lousy security system that tries to match airline passengers against terrorist watch lists. I've already heard rumblings about requiring states to check identities against "government databases" before issuing driver's licenses. I'm sure Secure Flight will be used for cruise ships, trains, and possibly even subways. Combine REAL ID with Secure Flight and you have an unprecedented system for broad surveillance of the population.

    Is there anyone who would feel safer under this kind of police state?

    Americans overwhelmingly reject national IDs in general, and there's an enormous amount of opposition to the REAL ID Act. This is from the EPIC page on REAL ID and National IDs:

    More than 600 organizations have expressed opposition to the Real ID Act. Only two groups--Coalition for a Secure Driver's License and Numbers USA--support the controversial national ID plan. Organizations such as the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, National Association of Evangelicals, American Library Association, Association for Computing Machinery (pdf), National Council of State Legislatures, American Immigration Lawyers Association (pdf), and National Governors Association are among those against the legislation.

    And this site is trying to coordinate individual action against the REAL ID Act, although time is running short. It's already passed in the House, and the Senate votes tomorrow.

    If you haven't heard much about REAL ID in the newspapers, that's not an accident. The politics of REAL ID is almost surreal. It was voted down last fall, but has been reintroduced and attached to legislation that funds military actions in Iraq. This is a "must-pass" piece of legislation, which means that there has been no debate on REAL ID. No hearings, no debates in committees, no debates on the floor. Nothing.

    Near as I can tell, this whole thing is being pushed by Wisconsin Rep. Sensenbrenner primarily as an anti-immigration measure. The huge insecurities this will cause to everyone else in the United States seem to be collateral damage.

    Unfortunately, I think this is a done deal. The legislation REAL ID is attached to must pass, and it will pass. Which means REAL ID will become law. But it can be fought in other ways: via funding, in the courts, etc. Those seriously interested in this issue are invited to attend an EPIC-sponsored event in Washington, DC, on the topic on June 6th. I'll be there.

    Posted on May 09, 2005 at 09:06 AM
     
  22. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Joejojoba111, I said walking. I would have to present this universal ID card to an officer upon request - I currently have no need to carry any ID around whereever I go - I don't drive.
     
  23. atk

    atk Member

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    If there's anyone here who hasn't contacted their senators, please do so.

    We even have Sen. Ted Kennedy voting against the bill. Sen. Kerry's office won't indicate which way he plans to vote.
     
  24. Blackburn

    Blackburn member

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    How come they get away with attaching bills to each other to sneak things through?

    That should be grounds for impeachment.
     
  25. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Done. Contacted both of my senators for Colorado, leaving polite opposition to this bill with live staff (who knows if it will get relayed to them).

    Interestingly, some states are threatening legal challenge, and may even ignore this if passed.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050510/D8A061G80.html
     
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