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"Real" reason so many trash Model 700?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by lovethosesooners, Jun 18, 2012.

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  1. lovethosesooners

    lovethosesooners Member

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    I read posts often enough stating that Remington's quality has gone bad, blah blah blah that I often wonder why it's stated as often as it is.

    I have 4 Remingtons that have been anything but poor quality-an '86 1100, '11 870, '11 700 CDL 30-06 and '12 750 30-06; the 700 shoots 3/4" using factory load (Hornady), fit and finish is beautiful, and love the 750.

    I too have stayed away from the 700 plastic stocks, as they do seem "cheesey" to me-is it possible that many associate those stocks with the entire line? Or maybe the 770?

    I've no axe to grind, as I own numerous rifles of other mfrs, just makes no sense based on my own experieince as well as some friends newer Rem's to see the claims that the quality has gone south.....

    "What say you"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  2. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    I have a model 700 BDL in .30-'06 my mom gave me in 1965 (or so) that just last week made a 3/4" three shot group at 100 meters ... my club has gone metric. The load was my standard 180 grain consisting of 56.0 grains IMR 4350, CCI LR primers, various cases and Hornady's 180 grain soft point Interlock bullet. I have records all the way back to the late '60s and this accuracy was typical.

    The trigger is a near perfect 3.5# with no creep and no over travel. Maybe they were just made better then, but when my club has a hunting rifle shoot I'm always asked would I like to sell it. No way.
     
  3. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    Remington in general, not the 700 alone. Why are we mad at them? Because many of us were hardcore fans for many years and then Remington started delivering garbage. That new rifle they sell does not deserve to wear the 700 badge because it is nowhere near as good as the old ones, how would I know? Because I was a third generation Remington nut who has shot them for many years until they screwed me. You wil never ever hear me trash talk the old 700s but my last three Remingtons were complete failures. Now I shoot Savage and Tikka rifles, both of which have been 100% reliable and more accurate then my 700s ever were by a healthy margin, like a one hole margin :D
     
  4. CharlieDeltaJuliet

    CharlieDeltaJuliet Member

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    I have the SPS Tactical. It has the "Plastic stock". I have nothing but great things to say about it. It shoots under 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards. I think people just hear " they misfire" from CBS & 60 minutes and the bad reputation sticks. I love my rifle. I think Some people just believe what they hear. I had a friend that cussed the 700 like it had killed his dog. I asked why he said " they are junk, you will see they all misfire after they get old". I ask if he had ever shot one, he said "no way, they are dangerous, and I heard alot of the problems are some of the parts are imported from China". I laughed and let him shoot mine, he instantly liked it, while still thinking it was going to auto-load and fire all by itself.
     
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "I think people just hear " they misfire" from CBS & 60 minutes and the bad reputation sticks. "

    The man who designed the trigger told Remington that there was a problem decades ago. In writing. It was known long before the TV shows got hold of it. In fact, there's a Remington memo from 1979 that says the Walker Fire Control trigger has a problem.

    John
     
  6. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    i have owned many rems and still own alot of them. most problems with a rem trigger is that most don,t take the time to adjust the trigger right, it should be adjusted one stage at a time,screw A first then screw B and screw C last. i like my hunting triggers to be close to 4lbs,with my varmit and bench rifles i like it alot lower and only load one shell at a time and never in a hurry. talk about a AD waiting to happen( older win 94, marlin 336,s too), loading or unloading in bad hunting conditions,i have been close to several AD,s with thoses rifles in hunting conditions, but never with a rem or any other bolt rifle. eastbank.
     
  7. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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    Misfires?

    I do not have older Rems, so I cannot speak from that pespective, but I do own 2 modern Rem 700s and my brother owns one. We have 2 VLS heavy barrelled varmint rifles in .223 and .243 and I have VSF .223. We shoot prairie dogs with them and have fired 1,000s of rounds without a single misfire. Plus they are deadly accurate with our reloads. The VLS means Varmint Laminate Stock and are nice looking and sturdy...I still prefer nicely grained walnut, but these look as good as a laminate can look and have held up very well. The VSF means Varmint Synthetic Fluted. The stock is Synthetic gray with black squiggly lines running through it....not a bad look and is extremely rugged. It has been banged around in the vehicle and still looks as good as the day I bought it. I am generally not a fan of synthetic, but it does it's job very well. I buy Rems with confidence and plan to buy an older .270 when I can find one, so maybe I'll know more about the difference between old and new in the future.
     
  8. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    They are what they are........ That`s why I believe, some folks like the "older-ones." Not many have harsh words for those.
     
  9. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    The Remington trigger problem is older than that. Mike Walker, the engineer who designed the 700 series triggers discovered the problem in 1945 and suggested a change then. CNBC simply reported a problem that has been well known by knowledgeable shooters for 40 years and Remington insiders for 60 years. The problem is very real, but has nothing to do with the recent decline in Remington quality.

    Remington claims that only triggers that have been improperly modified or are dirty will do this. This is a true statement, and basically what Mike Walker discovered in 1945, but there are several other facts that Remington does not want you to know.

    Fact #1. Firearms have been around for over 500 years and Bubba the gunsmith has been playing with the triggers on all of them since the beginning. It is only the Remington triggers that Bubba cannot figure out. No other trigger design does this after Bubba works on them. And there are an awful lot of Remingtons that have fired on their own even though Bubba did not work on that gun.

    Fact #2. Remington claims that if Bubba didn't work on it, and it fired on its own, it is because it was dirty. What they don't want you to know is that because of the pre-2007 trigger design it only takes a single flake of unburned powder in the right spot, or a single grass seed and the gun will fire with no pull of the trigger. I don't care how anal you are about cleaning your gun you cannot prevent this. Any other trigger design could take a handful of mud in the mechanism and not do this.

    Fact #3. Remington wants you to think it is an isolated case, and it is always your fault. Remington used to keep records of all of the incidents reported to them. But seveal years ago Remington lawyers decided that was not a good idea, so the files were destroyed. Remigton insiders claim they had anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 incidents on file. But we'll never know for sure since they were destroyed before they could be subpoenaed in one of the many lawsuits.

    Believe me, this id not just a bunch of stuff made up by a TV network for ratings. The problem is real and any Remington bolt rifle made between 1945 and 2007 could fire with no pull of the trigger. I've seen a perfectly clean unmodified rifle do it.

    BTW. The current trigger design is almost exactly what Mike Walker proposed in 1945. Remington chose not to change because it would cost $.05 more per gun.
     
  10. joed

    joed Member

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    How about some examples of why you feel Remington is junk. I don't think they're anywhere as good as they once were and I doubt I'd buy another but I like to hear reasoning.

    My gripe was the lousy plastic stock on my last 700 purchased last year. But, this was an SPS VS stainless purchased for $484 new. First weekday after the purchase I ordered a B&C stock and Timney trigger. I can no longer complain though.

    But, I don't think I'd buy another Remington if I were in the market for another gun.
     
  11. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    You have to remember that a Corporation only exists to maximize profit now. Corporations trade off the cost of compliance with the penalties. It is often cheaper for a Corporation to simply violate the law, pay the penalty, then to comply.

    Back in the 40’s ideas such as Consumer Safety, safe products, were things in the future. You can see in that era of zero product liability, adding additional cost to a product, to prevent shooting accidents, was not considered. Corporations don’t care about the damage they do to people, society, the world, it is all about profits. Corporations are amoral in the pursuit of profit.

    An old Graybeard told me of two hardware store new M721’s that discharged into the floor boards of a car, when the owners came back from a hunting trip. They took the safety’s off and the rifles discharged.

    I don’t know how to test if a M700 trigger is safe or good. I don’t know how to keep one in operating condition. I assume it should be periodically blown out with a solvent and not oiled. Oil or worse, WD-40, gums up over time and regardless of the mechanism, that can cause issues.

    I have one 80’s vintage M700 in 6.5 Swede. I sold a later Tupperware stock M700. The earlier rifle is very accurate, after I bedded the thing. The later M700 never showed any improvement after restocking and rebidding.

    A gunsmith I know claims that with cheaper M700’s, the machining of receiver threads and barrels are off. He claims the threads don’t match well and that the factory uses glue in that joint to take up the slack. Heck if I know, but this is not the first time I have heard of late model M700’s with something on the barrel shank threads.

    I think the M700 is an excellent design, except for the trigger, and if well made, is the basis for an outstanding rifle.
     
  12. CharlieDeltaJuliet

    CharlieDeltaJuliet Member

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    I cannot speak for any of the later M700's other than my SPS Tactical. It is the most accurate (under $1200) out of the box rifle I have ever bought. It shot below an inch @100yds before I rebedded thevstock and strengthened it. Now it shoots better than that. It does not have the "feel"(fit and finish wise) of the older 700's, I would take it over my early 70's 30-06 any day. The bolt itself isnt as smooth opening or closing, but for the difference in cost with inflation, IMHO they have gotten better. They cost around the same price, but the value of the dollar has decreased, so technically they are cheaper now... Just my opinion. I love the M700's and feel for a mass produced affordable rifle they are the best for the customization and design.
     
  13. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

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    I've got a 700 BDL .22-250 I bought back in '74, never had a minutes problem with it. I did too! I didn't like the bowling pin plastic finish on it, so it now wears an oiled finish, still shoots 300-400 yds. dead on! My Pop left me his 700 ADL. '06, he bought that back in '78, still shoots like a house afire. The only one I think is a better shooter, is my Rem. 788 in .223. The orig. trigger was a turd if there ever was one! I put in a Timney trigger about a year ago, now shooting .056 isn't any big feat @ 200 yds. The newer ones I wouldn't have on the place! YMMV.
     
  14. MrDig

    MrDig Member

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    If you spend Beer Money and expect Champagne quality you are misguided to say the least.
    Remington like any other Manufacturer makes Beer Money guns and Champagne Money Guns but if you spend Beer Money you won't get a Champagne money gun most of the time.
    Form and Fit are the difference between a Beer Money Gun and a Champagne Money Gun.
    Function is not part of the discussion since regardless of the price of the Gun it should Function properly and Safely.
    My guess is people spending Beer Money and expecting Champagne Quality.
    Nobody expects Champagne quality from and AK pattern rifle it is a Beer Can on a 2x4 and designed to function, period. People buy a Rifle for Walmart Prices and Expect Custom Smith Quality and get Pissed Off because most of the time they got exactly what they paid for.
    Remember that "Expectation is the Death of Serenity and the Birth of Resentment."
     
  15. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Bought my 700 in '98 or so and I've personally had not a single hint of a complaint with it ever since. Its my go to deer gun and has taken many white tail. I guess in retrospect the trigger is a bit heavier than I like for target shooting, don't notice all that much in the bush though. Love my 870 too, and a few other models over the years.

    I have looked at those 770s and boy do they look like crap though. I'd probably go for a Savage or Tikka if I were looking for a new, low priced option.
     
  16. jim243

    jim243 Member

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    Actually it will, if the manufacturer is willing to take less profit on each sale. Remington the company has been bought and sold many times. So we are not talking about the same thing, when talking about old or new Remington rifles.

    Remington is a "Brand" and as such has value in it's "Brand Name". The most recent owners of the company have taken that brand name and wrecked it by making products that are way below the standards set by the orginal owners. Often family owned business will go down hill when the founder's family sells off the company. Unless it is sold to someone or a group that takes pride in the "Brand", you will see corners cut and quality go south. Well all I can say is that the Remington 770 I tried a few years back was so bad, it rattled when you picked it up, the bolt was machined poorly, the stock sucked and the overall appearance and feel was a POS. Now, if someone tried to sell me a 1980's remington CDL, all I would think about is the junk that I looked at and pass on any purchase of their equipment. That doesn't make that 1980 CDL bad, just that the "Brand" has gone so down hill, I wouldn't even consider buying one.

    Just my opinion.
    Jim
     
  17. natman

    natman Member

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    The 710/770 is enough to trash anyone's reputation for quality. Even worse was the 870 express / 700 SPS matte finish that rusted if you looked at it.
     
  18. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    A couple years ago the carbon fiber stock on my M-700 Titanium Mountain Rifle (30-06) broke and I posted photos here.

    Within a day somebody at Remington heard about it and they over-night mailed me a new stock (which they farm out) ...Free of charge.

    A couple days later I had a phone call asking how it worked and if I needed any more help.

    They did OK by me...
     
  19. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Member

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    In today's fast paced,money or nothing world,almost all manufacturing processes cut corners to produce their products.
    Every company produces lemons from time to time,and they all sell products that to most people "Aren't as good as they used to be" mentality.

    Most people today have a Walmart mentality-They want everything to cost less,but then they want to receive a top shelf product.Too bad,it doesn't work that way in real life.
    When you buy a cheaper model gun,you get a cheaper model gun.

    You can't get Rolls Royce quality buying a Chevy!
     
  20. CharlieDeltaJuliet

    CharlieDeltaJuliet Member

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    My SPS(matte finish tactical) has been in horrible weather, and has only been wiped down with gun oil. It has never rusted. So its not exactly a fact to say that all of a model are bad or all of that finish rust.
     
  21. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    I'm trashing mine. I have four. Wearing them out, one round at a time.
     
  22. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    if you misadjust a rem trigger and pull on the trigger with the safety on and then push the safety off it will drop the fireing pin, so will alot of other rifles.if you load up your trigger group with a gumming oil(wd-40-3in1 oil amoung others and let it set over time the oil hardens and will affect the workings of the triggers on any rifle. i have two older rem,s a 1948 721 and a 1952 722 that have fired many rounds after having their triggers adjusted to 4lbs with out any problems whats so ever and many,many other rem 700,s with the same results, i,m not saying there has not been AD,s caused by the triggers(the same with other rifles),but with a little care and thinking they will be minimal. out of all the millions of rem rifles produced just what percent of mishaps do you think have happened(i know one is to many,and in a perfect world you would be right). a rifle is not hulla hoop and is by nature a dangerous instirment. eastbank.
     
  23. OrangePwrx9

    OrangePwrx9 Member

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    That is such crap, MrDig. If anything, my experience proves the exact opposite.

    Two words: "Remington 788"

    Beer money for champagne performance. First new rifle I ever bought was with my first 2nd Looey paycheck. It was a 788 in .22-250. Cost less than $90 NIB. Outshoots everything I've bought since...even the stainless varmint heavy barrels. Only others that came close are 788s in 6mm Rem. and .308.

    Simple is better if it's done right. I think the 788 was discontinued because the 700 couldn't stand the competition.
     
  24. H2oPumper

    H2oPumper Member

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    I'm scared to death of a new 700. I would have not trouble owning one built 20 years ago. A hunting buddy bought a 270 WSM in a 700. You have to bear down so hard on the bolt to close the action I'm surprised he hasn't snapped the handle. When it comes time to eject the spent cartridge, the ejection angle is too low and it just barely touches the ejection port, but enough to allow the bolt to hang on to the case causing a jam. The gun was sent back to Remington and they came back with no problem. I have pictures of it and my buddy has a 700 in a 270 WSM for sale. Three different ammo brands were tried with the same results. This occurs on every 1-3 rounds.
     

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  25. longrange308

    longrange308 Member

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    Let us not forget that some people bash Remington because they cannot afford them. I had one person tell me their Stevens bolt action rifle is better than my than my Remington 700. Granted people like to feel good about their equipment and bashing others rifles makes them feel good.

    Here's a story for you: I was a Deputy Sheriff for 4 years two of which I was on the Sheriff's Emergency Response Team (S.E.R.T). While at the range one day I was confronted by a boy around 19-20 years old. The boy declared, "I can beat you with my Mossberg 4X4 30-06." I told him, "If I beat you I get your rifle, but if you beat me I will give you the amount your rifle is worth." I was not about to give my Remington 700 ($2,500.00) with a Nightforce optic ($1,700.00) to some punk kid because for all I knew this kid could have had talent to beat me, even with his Mossberg 4X4. I told him we would get three alternating shots each using factory ammo and the targets would be set to 100 yards. He agreed, and that was that.

    I shot first, right in the ten ring. He fired a shot, right on the lip of the ten ring. I fired a second shot, right in the same hole as the first shot. He fired a second shot, about one inch from his first shot. There was no need to go any further with the competition. I walked over to him and took his rifle and walked away, he started to cry telling me how hard he had worked that Summer to buy that rifle.

    Knowing what it was like to be 19 or 20, I gave him his rifle back (no intentions of keeping it in the first place). I even let him shoot my "Darling Person", and you know the kid had real talent, his rifle was just inferior.

    I am amazed how far some people will go to prove their equipment is better than some other person's equipment, when obviously their equipment is inferior.
     
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