"Real" reason so many trash Model 700?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by lovethosesooners, Jun 18, 2012.

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  1. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Remington has been through a rough patch over the last few years, in part due to the incredible demand for firearms and ammunition over the past four years, and in part due to some changes at Remington resulting from the change in ownership. However, the new CEO of Freedom Group and the owner of Cerberus want Remington to be successful and care about the brand name and are making changes to get Remington back to where it used to be. Based on the 870 tactical and VERSA-MAX tactical shotguns that I bought recently, Remington is moving in the right direction.

    As for the 700, I have three, but these days I look for features that come standard on rifles made by Accuracy International, Kimber and Winchester so my 700 days are over. I still think that they're good rifles though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  2. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    All of mine were 700s not 710s or 770s, and they were all failures, If they cannot build a $700+ CDL to spec there is no excuse for that. I really hope Remington gets back on track, because they are a staple of the US firearms market that will otherwise be spread among forgin made brands (Sako, Browning, Tikka, Howa, Weatherby)
     
  3. TanklessPro

    TanklessPro Member

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    If you do not mind me asking, what were the failures?
     
  4. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    The first had routine feeding issues and sub-par accuracy (yes it was the gun and not me)
    The second was my CDL and it absolutly would not chamber a round no matter what, such a pretty rifle too :(
    The third was the only one that shot tight (REALLY tight), unfortunetly it was rusting like it was bathed in saltwater daily, even with regular cleaning and oiling it was a total loss within a few months. None of my other rifles ever had such an issue.
    That is why I say Remington QC is the worst in the buisness, I have had better luck out of Mossberg and other bargain brands.....how sad is that?
    The old Rem 700s were fantastic, grandpa had a old 700 in 280rem that was one of the best rifles I have ever laid my hands on but that was some years ago.
     
  5. ElToro

    ElToro Member

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    i have 3 sporter weight blue on wood ADL style 700s a 30-06, 308 built in the early and mid 70s and a .223 made in the early 80s. i watched the CBS thing and and i tried as hard as i could to make mine do that ( at a range with the barrel pointed down range) worked the bolt and safety in every combination possible with a live round in the pipe. never had an AD. maybe im just lucky

    all 3 are used and have unknown rounds including hundreds each by me. still accurate and reliable. i will take my chances and just not point a loaded rifle at any thing i dont intend to shoot
     
  6. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    If one of my Remingtons misfire, itd an ammo problem. They simply don't do that. I've never had a misfire in one. Okay, one's older than dirt, pre 700, a M722 short action. The other is new enough to have the bolt safety lock missing, a stainless M7. Both are excellent rifles of high quality. I wouldn't HAVE one of those 770s, but I don't know that the 700s have gone to crap. I wouldn't be surprised if QC had, but nothing wrong with the design IMHO other than Remington needs to do the safety right and design a 3 position safety. I mean, my Savage has one and it was considerably cheaper. It CAN'T be a cost issue. That kinda gets my goat, that they got lazy and didn't do the safety issue right. I was always of a mind that if it was worth doing, it was worth doing right.

    When I did the triggers on these guns, I just had a gunsmith do 'em. They're set where I like 'em, 3 crisp lbs, and it didn't cost more'n 25 bucks each or so to have 'em done.
     
  7. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    I can understand buying the second ... but the third ... :confused: . When did you buy each of these rifles and were they NIB?

    I only bought one Savage and that fiasco was enough to convince me to never buy another. Had Savage been honest and honorable I would have given the product a chance but since their CS dept consists of a bunch of lying ignorant muppets I'll spend my money elsewhere. As I say these days "no one aspires to own a Savage!".
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  8. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    The second and thrid were brand new, the first was lightly used when I bought it. I gave Remington another chance because I had been a die hard fan for many years before that, those three were not the only Remingtons I have owned only the newest.
    BTW I do aspire to own (another) Savage, I have had very very good performance out of each and every one I have owned, but if I found a rifle that was every bit as accurate, reliable, and tweekable, with better refinement I would have to give them a shot. Savages while accurate and rock solid reliable are anything but refined, the action is clunky, the factory synthetic SUCKS and the barrel is rough as sandpaper for the first 100 rounds. I am still brushing out chunks of lead from my Savage 30-06 after it's third trip, my more refined rifles never did that after the first trip to the range.
     
  9. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "and are making changes to get Remington back to where it used to be."

    They're going to sell the company to someone who knows how to build good guns?
     
  10. Savage99

    Savage99 Member

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    The Rem. 700 design and the 721/722's before them lack features that make them fine guns. Of course they shoot bullets and cost less and that's all that some want.

    I want more. I like well made and designed machinery.

    Just look at the bolt face on a 700, for instance and if you see the extractor as a tiny spring that lacks CRF then you understand.

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGiT3aaAOQwiOonK6-B_Ud8UXehuovKkeCOJ7dGCQGN9Dl_H2rd6mhAUvG.jpg
     
  11. rajb123

    rajb123 member

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    I owned a m700 in 30-06 with a walker trigger in the 1970s....no problem for me.

    I would not own one now, however. ...why take a chance with safety?

    I'm not sure I would want to hunt with others who were using an m700.
     
  12. SpeedAKL

    SpeedAKL Member

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    I have a 700 SPS-V, which is basically their 700P without the nice HS Precision stock, chambered in .308. The SPS stocks are cheap IMHO, but otherwise the gun has run without complaint. Consistently reliable, relatively smooth action, dependable sub-MOA accuracy. Trigger is not as crisp as I'd like but it isn't junk either. I'm not that great a shooter, but it should be a 0.75-MOA gun with top-quality ammo. I'll likely replace the stock, upgrade the barrel, and upgrade the trigger in the future.

    Regarding the Remington hate, there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that Big Green is having more quality control issues than normal. Is this only because of increased sales/production or is there an actual problem? Very hard to tell without running the numbers.

    I'm happy with my 700, partly because I got a screaming deal on it. It also makes a great "starter gun" for future upgrades or customization. There is massive aftermarket support for the 700 in the tactical and precision communities, and most top precision rifle shops made their names by upgrading 700s. For precision shooting, I'd look strongly at a FN or Savage in the same price range were I more concerned with "out of the box" performance.

    I can't speak as much for hunting rifles, though many friends have had success with the 700. I've been browsing for a new deer rifle and am leaning more towards Winchester or Browning for perceived build quality.
     
  13. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Savage99, you're a controlled feed freak? Why? You huntin' Africa? I use my guns for deer and hogs and they work just fine. My .257 Roberts, a 60 year old M722 short action, has been filling the freezer for all that time, never failed me or my grandpa. It kills game just as dead as your 10,000 custom, I'll bet! I went to a local club shoot, once, they were doing deer rifle bench rest competition. Custom bench guns were outlawed. This old fart in the club owns Klein-Gunther, and Weatherby Mk Vs and they're all scoped with Schmidt and Bender. He prides himself in his high dollar guns and spends hours working up loads for accuracy in them. I sent him home pouting that day with my old 722. :D Was rather funny, but I took the first place that day with that old rifle and its favorite handload and the Bushnell Banner it's topped with. I don't think if I put every gun I own, 20+ long guns and 26 handguns, all together, it could match the price of one Klein-Gunther/Schmidt and Bender combination. At least to own a match winning rifle, you don't have to be rich, just know what you're doing with your cheap Remington.

    MANY match rifles are built on Remington actions and our country's best snipers have been armed with them for quite a while, now. Interesting that snipers DON'T WANT controlled round feed, have to make noise to get an ejected case with one. I'm not sure why one should bash Remingtons unless you're like that old man at the shoot and hate getting beat by a cheap rifle. I also own a Savage 110, don't shoot as well as either of my Remingtons, but it's a 1MOA gun, shoots well enough. It was one HELL of a lot cheaper than my M7 Stainless, too!
     
  14. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    I upgraded my Remingtons to PT&G bolts with Sako extractors for this very reason but that's why I'm drawn to Kimber and Winchester these days. Rifles from these companies show up with a large claw extractor, a three-position safety that blocks the firing pin, no soldered bolt handle and no plunger ejector on the bolt face. CRF is an added feature too but not a deal breaker for me.


    There are more than enough people under the FGI umbrella that know how to build good rifles, the trick is to increase production without lowering quality. These two variables can get out of sync from time to time and without good leadership and accountability, real problems start to show up.
     
  15. Boomie

    Boomie Member

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    Re: CRF

    I have two Remmy 700's. My 30-06 was my first center fire rifle and I've shot it more that any of my other rifles. It's also my hunting rifle so it has been abused worse than any of my other rifles. I've never had any feeding/extraction issues with either. My Mauser, however, is shot far less and has broken it's big beefy claw extractor before.

    I believe CRF got it's reputation because I'm under the impression that is the only way you can feed and extract the big tapered rounds (like many big Africa rounds). Tapered rounds have a bit more reliability than straight walled rounds. I refuse to believe the design is actually more reliable.
     
  16. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    ^ I have to say that you are the first person I have ever heard imply that a Rem 700 is more reliable at extracting than a Mauser action, if I remember correctly when tested the factory Rem 700 extractor broke at 98lbs and the K98 extractor claw broke at just over 300lbs.
     
  17. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    if you have a true CRF,like the old md 70,s and o3,o3a3 springfields,the barrels are cone shaped and have a big cut out for the claw extractor at the breech end (take a look at a barrel). that leaves alot of the cartridge head unsupported and can wreck a rifle if a case head lets go for any reason(overload, barrel obstruction). and true crf rifle(98 mauser type) will not feed a singe round not inserted into the magazine and in fact may break off the tip of the extractor if forced closed(unless beveled by a gunsmith). i have both types of rifles and if taken care of and operated right will be satisfactory. eastbank.
     
  18. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    does anybody know when the date was when qc went down the tubes? i cant read the whole thread couse im on a cell phone. i bought my 700 bdl in '06. and mine has been flawless.
     
  19. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    Apr 2007 was when CCM bought them out, many consider this (or shortly afterward) the point they went down the tubes.
     
  20. CharlieDeltaJuliet

    CharlieDeltaJuliet Member

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    See I love my 700 and it is 8 months old. I personally have no beef at all with the quality. I actually think that since Cerberus bought them thing are looking up. They even have a new contract for M4's.
     
  21. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    Yeah that is called lowest bidder, not highest quality. Haveing shot many an old and new 700 I prefer everything about the older 700s except for the trigger, the X-Mark does break cleaner and with less grit. An upgraded trigger on a oldschool Rem is the ticket.
     
  22. MrDig

    MrDig Member

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    I just realized I do own a Remington, it is an 03A3 but it is a Remington. Bubba'd to all get out but it was that way when I got it so it's not my fault.

    So from my experience I have no complaints about a Remington Rifle but like I said it was made in the 40's from Springfield Specifications. Does that count?
     
  23. TheSwede

    TheSwede Member

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    I worship the Remington 700 from the 1960's. Thats nearly perfection.
     
  24. TheSwede

    TheSwede Member

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    If customers doesnt complain and continue to buy the crap, why should Remington care about the quality control?
     
  25. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    I have no problems with my Remington standard triggers, FAR better than my older Savage 110 in that they can be set lower, though 3 lbs is what I like in a hunting rifle, so I guess that don't really matter. They break very clean and crisp, though. I can't see another trigger being any better, frankly, unless maybe it's for a bench rest rifle and needs to be set in ounces rather than pounds.

    Yes, the big advantage to the 700 bolt head is that it offers complete support for the case head, a very safe design. I like that, don't need CRF at all, don't worry about working the bolt standing on my head.
     
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