Realistic 55 gr FMJ BT accuracy in plain AR

[Toprudder]

Same for me! Great posts Toprudder. I like to show myself how accurate a rifle can be before I relegate it to peep sight service (my favorite way to shoot), and a scope temporarily mounted for load testing or development is the way to go!

Although I shoot 3-4 MOA prone (with the occasional crazy small cloverleaf group) with my Marlin 60 with Tech Sights, I really enjoy knowing that with a 4X scope on it it’s good for less than 1.6 MOA. Makes me feel like I am holding a finely crafted tool and that makes a big difference when I am judging myself and my shooting with the peep sights. Nobody to blame and a yardstick to measure myself against.

Well, I usually like to use some magnification as my eyes aren't what they used to be. But, on my 20" AR, I have a cheap set of 45 degree offset backup sights, with a really long sight radius, and I have them well adjusted. I usually like to finish up a shooting session by shooting a few rounds using those, and I can hit a half size steel silhouette target at 300 yards pretty consistently with them. For me, that feels like more of an accomplishment than maintaining < 1 moa with a 18x scope.

And, yes, a yardstick is appropriate for measuring my groups sometimes, too.

 

[Charlie98]

But, on my 20" AR

My 20" AR is an A2... so no scope. But the trend is 16" AR barrels, anyway (for now... ) and with the short sight radius, the scope really comes in handy.

Doc, I've got peeps mounted on almost every rifle I can fit them to, including my Marlin 15 and 60. As long as the light is right, I'm pretty good with them, it's indoors or when the light goes away I start to have problems.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I also want to keep practicing with my irons and learning how to shoot better. Although I dream of getting a nice target rifle someday and maybe fussing more over the handloads, for now I want to finally load up the brass I have.

As far as reloading technique, how much potential difference is there sizing on a single stage vs using a progressive? I had this plan in mind:

1) Use a Redding Instant Indicator to setup my FL sizing die to about 0.003 shoulder bump in station one of my 1050
2) Remove case at station 2, and trim with a Giraud trimmer, then return it to the press, and pull the handle again to send it around for everything else

Since, for now, I would be shooting these loads through my AR, how much potential accuracy might I lose by using my progressive machine with the standard Dillon powder measure, sizing, seating, dropping powder simultaneously? Those loads I made up were all single stage, and charges thrown in the Redding competition powder measure. I'm assuming that the AR and my 4x scope are the rate limiting factors, and that unless the ammo is being shot in something more refined, a little mass production won't hurt, but I'm curious for opinions and wisdom from those who have tried both. I was also considering doing my sizing on the single stage first, and only use the progressive for primers, powder, and bullet seating, which I've heard introduces less variation.

 

[Toprudder]

As far as reloading technique, how much potential difference is there sizing on a single stage vs using a progressive? I had this plan in mind:

I can only speak of my experience with my Dillon 550.

I have my 550 setup for loading 223, but I do all the case prep work (sizing, trimming, chamfering) before I introduce the brass to the Dillon. (I size on my turret press.) Instead of a sizing die in station 1, I have a Lee universal expander, to put a slight flare in the mouth for when I use flat-base bullets. All other stations are normal - Lee Auto-Drum measure in #2, Forster micrometer seating die in #3, collet crimp die in #4. I don't crimp except for 55fmj with cannelure.

For my precision loads, I drop powder with my Chargemaster, and basically just seat the bullets on the 550.

As for how much it affects accuracy? I'm guessing it may add 1.0" to the group size, but I have not done a direct comparison. If my plinking loads give 2.0 - 2.5", I am happy with that. My precision loads are 1 moa or better, but they are different bullets altogether.

 

[LiveLife]

I dream of getting a nice target rifle someday and maybe fussing more over the handloads

I bought 18" 1:7 upper with .223 Wylde chamber to build a more accurate AR than my 20" Bushmaster HBAR (My build won't have the same parts as below build list but will be built for accuracy within a budget and be used for accuracy testing platform).

Here's a build list for AR that produced minute of milk jug at 1000 yards using 77 gr Berger bullet, CCI primers and TAC powder pushed to 2690 fps:

• White Oak Armament 18" 1:7 twist barrel .223 Wylde chamber
• Mega Arms Billet Ambi Billet Matched set upper & lower
• Geisselle SSA-E Trigger
• JP Silent Capture Spring
• Fail Zero BCG
• Luth-AR MBA 1 Stock
• Syrac Ordinance Adjustable Gas Block
• Noveske NSR 16.7" handguard
• Harris BRM S bipod
• ADM QD Mount
• SWFA 3-15 optic

 

[cougar1717]

I wanted opinions of my results and suggestions on what else I can do with these bullets.

While I would not speak in absolutes, for the equipment and components, I think it would be unlikely to achieve much better. The variation in the bullets alone is significant. Even if the reloader prepped the brass with match style techniques and trickled to exact powder drops, the bulk FMJ bullets are still the largest source of inconsistency. Most people don't compare using 20 shot groups, but using the totally unscientific "75% rule of thumb," a person could estimate a 10 shot group being 2.1" and a 5 shot group being 1.6". This would be reasonably good for bulk FMJ BT.

does this seem about right for Hornady bulk bullets through my setup, or should I continue playing with variables such as seating depth, charges, or other brass prep?

You could take them all the way out to mag length (ie 2.260" or just under, depending on the mag) and keep tinkering with charge weights and all the periphery, but the elephant in the room is that bulk bullets are not typically consistent. Sure, people will cherrypick a sub-moa "gem," and claim all day accuracy, but that is "better than average" performance.

Short story: I was working up a similar load to the OP's with PMC brass, Tula SRM primers, AA2230, and Hornady 55gr SP bulk in a 20" AR with a 3-9x scope set at 9x. Most of those 5 shot groups hover around 1.3-1.8", meaning that I have a baseline for consistency and expectation. For one group I shot, the first four bullets went through the "same ragged hole." For a moment I got my hopes up that I had found that perfect combination. It wasn't jitters or something psychological as I've shot much smaller groups, but as you might have guessed, that fifth shot opened up the group to a 1.6" average. It's times like that I need to get the 22 out with some match ammo and shoot a few cloverleaves to make sure I'm not crazy.

Short answer - bulk bullets are a bottleneck to smaller groups.

 

[RecoilRob]

For 'precision' ammo I spin check them for runout with a dial indicator....then group them by their numbers. Have found some correlation with the lowest runout ammo being more accurate in 5.56, 308 and 50 BMG but how much would depend on a LOT of variables and only you can decide if this would be beneficial to you or not.

The loading press 'shouldn't' matter as much as the particular dies being used as to how concentric the resulting rounds end up being. If you don't have a runout checking device...and you care about accuracy at all...it would be a good investment.

Just for an example of good bullets vs FMJ's...my Bushmaster Varminter will put 10 Sierra or Nosler's into .4" pretty much anytime if I do my part. That rifle shoots well! But load up any FMJ's I've tried (55 and 62's) and even with weighed charges and nearly perfect runout loading they open up to 2" or more. The M855 were particularly bad...going over 3" where some IMI and Hornady M193 55's would skirt 1" at times...but couldn't be counted on to not throw a flier here and there to ruin a good group. If you really want to see how well your rifle can shoot....you've GOT to feed it quality projectiles first and load them consistently.

 

[Toprudder]

If you don't have a runout checking device...and you care about accuracy at all...it would be a good investment.

I have been putting it off, but you just twisted my arm to get one. Thanks.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I was shooting well despite the wind. The top is the 7th firing of my PPU07 brass, Hornady 55gr FMJBT with 24.5gr AA2230, and some Wolf 223 Rem primers. This is in my same rifle as before, 20” plain HBAR with 4x scope, and a Wilson combat trigger.

The brass was resized in the Redding FL S bushing die, on 246. I can feel the carbide ball gently rubbing most of the necks on the way out, some less than others. So, the only differences today were using Wolf primers instead of CCI 41, the sizing die set up to bump more precisely than before, and using a target with a smaller black center. Maybe practice makes better, too?

The second target is some factory PRVI M193, same lot as my reloads. I found a few boxes left. It was the last target of the day, so maybe the gun was a little dirty, maybe I was tired. But the best target of the day was the one I shot right before.

I plan on loading up some various better bullets, some Hornady spire points, Vmax, and some Varmageddon, all 55 gr. I also picked up a pound of CFE223 to try out.

If and most likely when I get another toolhead, should I be able to maintain this quality loading on a 1050? Like I said before, I’m planning on sizing on the single stage and then getting a Giraud trimmer. After that, I would love to be able to dump the brass into the case feeder and let big blue so the rest.

 

[entropy]

It's in my avatar. That's my DPMS Sportical at 50 yards. This was a sight-in target.

The group in the lower left is a 3 shot verification group. The zero is, well, zeroed on the main bull. This was my work-ups for hunting loads, done first with FMJ, then 55 V-Max, which shot the same at 50 and 100.

 

[Toprudder]

I plan on loading up some various better bullets, some Hornady spire points, Vmax, and some Varmageddon, all 55 gr. I also picked up a pound of CFE223 to try out.

Your rifle may be different, but I have found the Hornady 55SP bullets to be more accurate than the regular 55 FMJ. They are only about a penny more per bullet, so I buy those instead of FMJ now, for plinking ammo. Like I have heard said, "If it ain't accurate, it ain't interesting".

The contrast between the factory and your reloads is pretty dramatic, IMHO. The factory loads scattered quite a bit, but most of your reloads clustered in a much smaller area.

Going for accuracy has been a cycle for me. In the beginning, it was mostly me that had to improve. Once I improved, then I could tell that I needed a better trigger, and the accuracy improved. Then the limiting factor was me again. As I improved, then I started working on loads and found an accurate combination. Then it was me again. I keep nibbling away at whatever becomes the next dominant limiting factor.

 

[RecoilRob]

If you're in the mood to experiment....H335 has always delivered top notch accuracy in my rifles. Part of it is how consistent it meters being a fine ball powder so the ES is very low though my rifles have all wanted pretty close to max charges for best accuracy for some reason. Use it in both 5.56 and 7.62 Nato/308's where it's a very good choice if you aren't chasing that last 1% of velocity.

 

[Bartojc]

If you're in the mood to experiment....H335 has always delivered top notch accuracy in my rifles. Part of it is how consistent it meters being a fine ball powder so the ES is very low though my rifles have all wanted pretty close to max charges for best accuracy for some reason. Use it in both 5.56 and 7.62 Nato/308's where it's a very good choice if you aren't chasing that last 1% of velocity.

I use H335 exclusively for 55gr bullets in .223 Remington. With the right bullet (not FMJ) I can get sub MOA with my cheap Ruger AR556.

-Jeff

 

[CoalTrain49]

Hornady lists the 55 grain FMJ-BT as a match/varmint bullet and the SP as a varmint bullet. Not sure what that means.

I'm going to try some spire points based on this discussion.

 

[Skgreen]

I'm certain some folks can get good groups with their AR's, but even after rolling my own ammo and buying (another) AR with a 24" heavy barrel, the 'magic' just never happened.

Disclaimer: I only shoot from a bench, so the following will not apply / will not work for all:

'Getting better groups', at least for me, meant parking the AR's and switching to a heavy barreled bolt gun.

Burn through less ammo.
No OAL limit due to a magazine.
Sooooooooooooooooooooo much easier to clean/keep clean.
No spring/buffer noise to listen to.

I also use a 36X fixed power scope. (Obviously not a 'hunting rig' LOL!)

Shot out the OEM 9 twist barrel about 6 mo's ago. Replaced it with an 8 twist. 69-75 gr pills with either.

I understand AR's are quite popular,,, See 'em everywhere and have a few of my own,, But for my application, it just wasn't the right tool for the job.

 

[Skgreen]

Hornady lists the 55 grain FMJ-BT as a match/varmint bullet and the SP as a varmint bullet

Recently toured the Hornady plant in Grand Island. Saw the underground 'live fire' testing department.

Tech told me they ~predominately~ use Varget for rifle powder, don't load HOT, and consider pass/fail (when fired through their bolted-down test barrels through an underground tunnel) to be (IIRC) approx. 1 moa for hunting bullets and 1/2 moa for Match bullets.

 

[TheDomFather]

I've been working up a load for my Bushmaster 20" standard target rifle, with Hornady 55 gr FMJBT bullets, AA2230 powder 24.5 gr, COAL 2.215", trimmed to 1.750, and CCI #41 primers. I've tried different brass, including once fired Win NT 556, LC '12, PPU, and some old WCC. I have a 4X ACOG and a Wilson combat trigger on it, and was shooting off the big Bullsbag rest and a small bag for the rear.

Yesterday, I shot a three 20 round groups (I was trying different bushings from 246 to 248 in the Redding FL bushing die, made no difference!), and measured 2.8 inches with my calipers. The winds were blowing about 10 mph or so. They averaged around 3050-3090, SD 18-22. I've read many different threads about factory M193 vs handloads, and expectations of what a standard barrel can achieve, and I wanted opinions of my results and suggestions on what else I can do with these bullets.

Unlike the "MOA all day" claims, I was pretty pleased with less than 3 inch, 20 shot groups. I know I need to keep practicing to improve "the nut behind the bolt." From my results so far, does this seem about right for Hornady bulk bullets through my setup, or should I continue playing with variables such as seating depth, charges, or other brass prep? I plan on graduating to a nice bolt gun with big glass on it someday, but for now I want to optimize shooting my AR.

Thanks!

What is the twist rate of your barrel?

 

[CoalTrain49]

Recently toured the Hornady plant in Grand Island. Saw the underground 'live fire' testing department.

Tech told me they ~predominately~ use Varget for rifle powder, don't load HOT, and consider pass/fail (when fired through their bolted-down test barrels through an underground tunnel) to be (IIRC) approx. 1 moa for hunting bullets and 1/2 moa for Match bullets.

Thanks. That would suggest that the match bullets are constructed to a higher accuracy standard.

 

[Rule3]

Did the OP mention at what distance anywhere??
Different bullets could make a difference but the original seemed fine to me all things considered.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm certain some folks can get good groups with their AR's, but even after rolling my own ammo and buying (another) AR with a 24" heavy barrel, the 'magic' just never happened.

Disclaimer: I only shoot from a bench, so the following will not apply / will not work for all:

'Getting better groups', at least for me, meant parking the AR's and switching to a heavy barreled bolt gun.

Burn through less ammo.
No OAL limit due to a magazine.
Sooooooooooooooooooooo much easier to clean/keep clean.
No spring/buffer noise to listen to.

I also use a 36X fixed power scope. (Obviously not a 'hunting rig' LOL!)

Shot out the OEM 9 twist barrel about 6 mo's ago. Replaced it with an 8 twist. 69-75 gr pills with either.

I understand AR's are quite popular,,, See 'em everywhere and have a few of my own,, But for my application, it just wasn't the right tool for the job.

I have both bolt and semi-auto also. Never expected more than 2-3 moa from my Mini-14. It shoots around 2 with some mods. I bought my HB bolt rifle for accuracy. It delivers 1 moa but I'm still working on different bullet and charge weights. I think It can do a lot better than 1 moa.

Nothing wrong with AR's or Mini's, just need to realize they aren't tack drivers like a bolt gun can be.

 

[Blue68f100]

All depends on the gun. I had one AR H-Bar barrel 1:8 twist that could not shoot any thing lighter that 65 gr. The best I ever got was 2.5 moa at 100 yrds with that gun and 55gr FMJ-BT. It did not like the light match bullets either. I tried 7 different powders and that was the best with CFE-223. My other heavy barrel 1:10 twist would shoot <1 1moa. I never had any luck with H335 as others have had. I have had good luck with Varget and heavier Match grade bullets along with the 65gr SBT GK.

 

[Bartojc]

Sometimes things line up sometimes they don't. Like I said earlier for hunting or general purpose target I've gotten good accuracy our of Sierra Pro Hunter 55gr and Nosler Varmegeddon 55gr. and H335. For the Sierra I use 25 gr and a little less for Nosler. These bullets are not expensive compared to match grade, but are not the price of the Hornady FMJBT 55gr either. They both have produced sub-moa groups out of an economy AR ( Ruger) with a crappy mil-spec trigger on a good day. Some days not so much.

Would a bolt gun do better ? Maybe. Would a different powder do better ? Maybe. There are lots of variables, and that is why reloading is so much fun. The one constant I have seen is that FMJ 55gr do not ever seem to do as well as the bullets I mentioned. I still shoot lots of them for fun but I know they are just not as consistent.

-Jeff

 

[Toprudder]

Thanks. That would suggest that the match bullets are constructed to a higher accuracy standard.

It has been my observation (someone correct me if I am wrong) that the Hornady "Match" bullets are open-tipped. This means the lead core is swaged in from the front instead of the rear as on FMJ. It makes the base of the bullet more consistently formed, which can improve accuracy. Some say that hollow point bullets in handguns are more accurate for this reason.

I have both bolt and semi-auto also. Never expected more than 2-3 moa from my Mini-14. It shoots around 2 with some mods. I bought my HB bolt rifle for accuracy. It delivers 1 moa but I'm still working on different bullet and charge weights. I think It can do a lot better than 1 moa.

Nothing wrong with AR's or Mini's, just need to realize they aren't tack drivers like a bolt gun can be.

I have a Mini-30, and 2-3 MOA is about the best I can get with it. "Minute of pie-plate" is often quoted for the Minis. For me, it always seems the first shot out of a mag is about an inch or two away from the rest. I have been able to get < 1 MOA from my one 20" AR, but it has taken some work to get there (good trigger, scope, and handloads). A big part of the problem with ARs is being restricted to mag length OAL and the resulting jump-to-lands.

 

[Rule3]

I have both bolt and semi-auto also. Never expected more than 2-3 moa from my Mini-14. It shoots around 2 with some mods. I bought my HB bolt rifle for accuracy. It delivers 1 moa but I'm still working on different bullet and charge weights. I think It can do a lot better than 1 moa.

Nothing wrong with AR's or Mini's, just need to realize they aren't tack drivers like a bolt gun can be.

If you spend enough money on parts and such they can be pretty darn accurate.

For us mere mortals there are just so many darn variables it is impossible to say just one thing that will make a run of the mill AR more accurate.
Barrel, trigger, bullets, powder, brass OAL yada yada

 

[CoalTrain49]

If you spend enough money on parts and such they can be pretty darn accurate.

Yep, seen them at the range. 2-3K custom build with a match barrel. Those will hold their own with a $700 bolt rifle.

I think I have about 1K into my Mini. I changed the gas bushing and had some trigger work done. Runs about the same as your bargain basement $500 AR. So I guess I'm guilty of spending more money than necessary right along with the custom AR crowd.

I truly do like my Mini 14 however. Just built some loads and heading to the range today to scratch the itch. The bolt gun always goes along too just to make me look good.