Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

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Kachok:

The bad guys I've run into, as a general rule, were all huge, 6'2" better, and at least 240 pounds.

Do you have any evidence that supports my theory that our criminal justice system turns out a breed of 'super criminals', in that to survive in such places,
strength is vital?

Also, any idea of a % that did their crimes while under the influence of drugs or alcohol?
 
I've never heard of a mugger, burglar, or rapist that took a slug from a potential victim and said, "Meh, that's just a .22, I'll keep coming." Is it ideal? No. But 99% of the time the bad guy(s) are off in a sprint like it's a race for their lives after the first shot.
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I have never been in a gunfight, but I have been attacked by a pit bull. The reason we carry is to protect ourselves from ALL threats. It took 4 9mm rounds to drop the dog, I would never trust a .22 to protect myself from any threat....2 or 4 legged.
 
You need to step up in caliber to the great manstopper 25 auto . Out of these little pistols has better penteration and a better bullet weight. It also more relieable. No use dieing because yours misfired or jammed. Get a mans gun a Beretta 25 auto. :D

You will need a 2nd pistol I have never saw a 22 Taurus Work very well Mine went back to Fl twice . Till only fired about 1/2 time.
 
MICHAEL T said:
You need to step up in caliber to the great manstopper 25 auto . Out of these little pistols has better penteration and a better bullet weight. It also more relieable. No use dieing because yours misfired or jammed. Get a mans gun a Beretta 25 auto. :D

You will need a 2nd pistol I have never saw a 22 Taurus Work very well Mine went back to Fl twice . Till only fired about 1/2 time.
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All three of my little mouse-guns, Taurus PT-25&22 as well as my Beretta 21A Bobcat .22lr need hi-velocity ammo or it's hit and miss. But it's like that in even the new Ruger SR22 that I have seen at the range hiccup a time or two on WallyWorld bulk while it eats up CCI Stingers like there's no tomorrow.

Really can't rely on these guns IMHO if you don't go with the more expensive .22lr ammo for defensive purposes (for plinking, just be patient and realize that .22lr ammo in a pistol will be anything but perfect/consistent).

-Cheers
 
I love when people give you nice, neat list of the 3 ways a SD situation is going to occur. When I read actual accounts, I find out no one knows how things will end up and what will happen in between.

The fact that you assume you'll "pop off a few" into your target, which you some how know will make contact, is contrary to your whole rant/philosophy.

"And if Mongo is still charging after that, I'll stick the barrel up his teeth". Now that line was priceless. Who's the one living in fantasy land? The way you assume all people who don't carry .22's are delusional makes me feel like your not comfortable with your choice.

I'm not one to worry about capacity or caliber, I carry a single stack auto or 5 shot snub. I've carried a .22 in a pitch and never once agonized about it's weakness or effectiveness. However, I when purchasing a carry gun, I do like to set a minimum standard in terms of caliber and that's ussually .38spcl. Why? Because I want to get the most for my money. You can't argue that the .22 is more effective than my minimum standard for self defense. I believe that your choice in caliber is perfectly fine but to practically insult anyone doing otherwise ands no validity to your claim.
 
A 22 will stop a person, but normally it's going to take a day and half, and you'd better hope that nobody has the presence of mind to seek medical attention. An excellent idea would be to have a good knife as a secondary weapon.

The 22lr is meant to be used on small, light animals like rabbits, which weight only about ~15 pounds. A human man, even if he is small and lacking in musculature, can easily be 150 pounds. As Prosser said, that most bad guys tend to be big and tough, they therefore are going to be even more unsuited for a 22 than the 150 pound basement shrimp.

Do you really want to bet your life on a small game/training round? In order to stay alive, you need to win every single time. In order to kill you, they only need to win once.

Handguns are truthfully not great for stopping humans, even the more powerful calibers in expanding configurations are not great quick reliable manstoppers. You also must think about what a person can do when intent upon inflicting harm and coursing with adrenaline, such as in a fight where a gun is pulled on them. On adrenaline, people often report that they didn't even notice that they had been shot until they fell over or until after the fight was over. As was said by my former teacher about when he was shot by a 7.62mm AK, that he just felt like someone had given him a hot shove but he didn't really notice until after the engagement had finished. when he felt a pain in his leg and noticed that blood was soaking his uniform. One of the important things to stopping someone is making them hurt and realize how hurt they are. If a 22 was all that was necessary, then why does the FBI not issue them or recommend them?

A smart man carries the best, most powerful tool he is the most skilled with. A 22 is an inadequate defense against an attacker of the human species. Personal defense is not really an area where you want to skimp on costs; this isn't like using compact fluorescents or taking generics.

Here's a bit of a weight and caliber table
http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm
 
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+1.

A .22 is a very lethal round. As was mentioned previously, the bullet will ricochet off of bone or other hard tissue and potentially mess up a lot of stuff. But it does not provide the instant stop the way a larger caliber will do. IIRC from the book "Handgun Stopping Power", a typical .22 round gave about 25% one shot stops. Contrast that to a .357 firing a 125 grain JHP at something like 97%, or a .40 S&W which is similar in some loadings.

About the Taurus 22PLY (the OP's concealed carry choice) it is interesting to note that it is NOT listed on the Taurus website in its concealed carry handgun section. The .22LR choice in their concealed carry is their Beretta 21A clone.

Slicer -- I hope you do as you've stated and study up. In Texas you do need a training class for a CCW and there are strict guidelines about using deadly force in Texas. We all hope never to need to shoot anyone but if/when you do, you're walking a razor's edge. Please read up on use of lethal force and concealed carry. I recommend Massad Ayoob's books as well as Chris Bird's concealed carry manual. Mr. Bird is a Texas resident and analyzes several good real life shooting incidents in his book -- most of which happened in Texas.

Last but not least, I think part of the issue is that you did not come here asking questions. You came here to provoke people into a discussion for your benefit. I find that to be manipulative and IMHO your initial post and follow up did not reflect well on your character. (The fact that you're still on here discussing things puts you in a better light -- again IMHO). It would have been better to pose actual questions, and to do so before you purchased anything at all. You have a great little plinker in the Taurus .22 but for self defense -- you just could have done better.

Regards,

Aaron
 
I own a naa mini revolver and carry it on my belt in a gerber knife sheath most times. It's so unnoticeable in weight or visibility I can't find an excuse not to carry it.

I don't have any delusions as to what it's capable of.....if i'm using a .22 for defense i'm really at the end of my rope. But it's better than a toothpick!
 
more explicit contrition

Once again would like to thank all for supplying ideas. Sorry if I gave offense, I didn't really mean to do that, just thought writing my thoughts up in the Screed format might generate more replies and help me learn quickly. Have now put +500 rounds through the PT-22. The gun is showing increasing trend towards FTL, even w/ CCI ammo, also about a 3% FTF. I think the former condition is arising from need to lubricate the ramp, but the FTF is more worrisome. Conclusion is the standard one: .22 not good enough on two counts. Looks to me like the new micro 9mm's are the answer, if you can find one. http://www.bobergarms.com/

:D
 
the bullet will ricochet off of bone or other hard tissue and potentially mess up a lot of stuff.
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even if true (and it isn't, really)
... the bullet will not speed up after a ricochet, so who cares? Straight-line penetration will be equal to or longer than "bouncy" penetration, you can't gain energy while passing through meat, and energy WILL be bled off in bullet deformation, structural damage, and other things that come up in the real world of physics, a .22lr bullet encountering bone isn't an inelastic collision, not much in the real world is.

This nonsense about "a .22 will bounce around and blend everything into a fine frappe" needs to end ... stop spreading it
 
Micro nines are not cutting edge, they've been around for years.


"I've never heard of a mugger, burglar, or rapist that took a slug from a potential victim and said, "Meh, that's just a .22, I'll keep coming." "

Just because you never heard of it...
 
.22 for carry

Not sure of a "real" answer until the situation actually happens then the outcome will determine reality or wanting to do the "right" thing (which may amount to fiction).
I know from multiple personal experiences when a situation does arise you only have 1-3 seconds to decide what you are going to do. Talk or walk.
If even that much time. Not saying I performed well in all those situations but, I wanted to...only because of training did I get out of some of them, only because of giving them what they wanted did I get out of others. Only getting shot made me fully realize what you have to decide.
If you have a plan and practice it..that is the most you can do. Hopefully training to the point of "not-thinking" but, just reacting from your training will you be able to bring to bear anything in the dogfight or wind up rolling over.
I hope I don't roll over anymore...not saying I won't. I have been to a couple of rodeos so, the next will not be my first.
I say, if you are well trained with whatever weapon you favor and are willing to use it immediately then, take whatever you want to the dogfight. Just be sure you are committed to your course of action.
Problem: situations can all be different, your attitude can change throughout the day...are you ready NOW????
Good luck to all...but, training.
 
I've know soldiers who have been shot or had fragmentation a lot bigger than a .22lr enter their bodies, and not even been aware of it for a minute or two because of the adrenaline dump. I've also known soldiers who have been shot or wounded and continued to shoot and fight, knowing full well of their wounds. The will to fight can overcome injury, including gunshots.

Do not EVER count on the bad guy deciding to give up because of anything you do, including shooting him. The only thing you can rely on is turning his abilty to move in a threatening manner off, by either damaging his central nervous system, or depriving his organs of oxygenated blood. That's it.
 
bigfatdave said:
This nonsense about "a .22 will bounce around and blend everything into a fine frappe" needs to end ... stop spreading it
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You completely mischaracterized my post. Please read it again and tell me where I (or anyone else in this thread) claimed that a .22 round speeds up after a ricochet, or turns "everything into a fine frappe".

The lethality of .22 rounds is well understood and well documented -- as is the fact that it is not a very good people stopper compared to other rounds.

I'll stop spreading my FINDINGS on my own time, thanks.
 
the question to the answer

Maybe. What is the question?
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The question is, really: what is the ultimate, hyperoptimal, pocketable carry gun? I got the little PT-22 because it gave me some punch (yeah I know, now: rimfire=unreliable, and .22 =insufficient stopper) while at the same time being a true pocket gun---to me that's hugely preferable to having to put on a holster.

But, as we now know, it's not a great weapon from the standpoint of stopping power nor reliability. 9mm appears the minimal adequate round. The answer to the ultimate-carryable question, for me, therefore appears to be the micro 9mm's; of these, the new Boberg looks like fantastic engineering---if you could get one. The waiting list is over a year, and who knows how reliable they are. If anyone has preferences or ideas on such pistols, I'd be curious.
 
perhaps if you had good carry gear to go with a normal compact pistol, you'd get over the obsession with a pocket gun.

yes, it costs some cash, but a real gunbelt and a good IWB holster make carry of a duty-caliber pistol so easy that it is almost as easy as that pocket rocket ... AND it doesn't use up a pocket, either!
 
The itty-bitty .380's pocket quite nicely and have a little more punch but may have issues sinking deeply enough after going through thick clothing. Some say that .380 SD pistols should only be loaded with FMJ to help ensure enough penetration.

I currenty have a Kel-Tec P11 with a side clip. With the factory 10 round mag it fits nicely in my front blue-jeans pocket and I wear a very loose shirt to cover it. I also carry a spare 15 round mag. I'll be replacing the P11 soon with a Ruger SR9c so I'll have to find another way to carry. I think the LC9 can use Kel-Tec's side clip... I may give that a try.

The bottom line is I'll only carry a small 9mm pistol. God forbid I ever need to use it but it's plenty capable to get the job done while still being easily concealable. I won't knock anyone for carrying a .22LR but I would never do it unless it's all I had.
 
Mike1234567 said:
The itty-bitty .380's pocket quite nicely and have a little more punch but may have issues sinking deeply enough after going through thick clothing. Some say that .380 SD pistols should only be loaded with FMJ to help ensure enough penetration.

I currenty have a Kel-Tec P11 with a side clip. With the factory 10 round mag it fits nicely in my front blue-jeans pocket and I wear a very loose shirt to cover it. I also carry a spare 15 round mag. I'll be replacing the P11 soon with a Ruger SR9c so I'll have to find another way to carry. I think the LC9 can use Kel-Tec's side clip... I may give that a try.

The bottom line is I'll only carry a small 9mm pistol. God forbid I ever need to use it but it's plenty capable to get the job done while still being easily concealable. I won't knock anyone for carrying a .22LR but I would never do it unless it's all I had.
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Is your 15 round mag made by Kel-Tec?

-Cheers
 
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