Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

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Deaf Smith said:
Cows don't shoot back.

Now yes, a .22, with excellent placement, will do the deed BUT generating that excellent shot placement under the stress of combat, especially self defense where it may come suddenly, is quite difficult.

The larger and more powerful the round the less need for exact placement.

Hence use the most powerful handgun you can control. For most folks that means something larger than a .22.

Deaf
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I find it ironic that two major sectors of the gun community can differ so dramatically on the subject of shot placements importance.

If you state that a bigger caliber of possibly vastly differing energy and calibers will help make up for poor marksmanship in a discussion about hunting you will rightfully be lambasted for such a misguided comical notion.

Yet in defense shootings folks will argue till the cows come home that minuscule diffrrnces in caliber will do just that to a notable degree.

And before you say "but deer don't shoot back" setting aside all the "shoot to stop" rhetoric for all intents an purposes the goal is the same. To kill the thing you're shooting at as quickly as possible.

I can say with absolute certainly that a bigger caliber that nicks or misses a vital is NEVER preferred to a shot right through that organ with a lesser one.

Shooting is just like real estate. It's all about location location location

posted via tapatalk using android.
 
But the odds are exponentially greater that multiple hits from larger bullets are going to hit something the bad guy needs to keep moving. This is why we train to shoot until the threat stops. Repeat as necessary.

There is a BIG difference between shooting a moving target when hunting, and shooting a moving target when it's shooting back. When I'm hunting, I can afford to wait until the deer stops to give me a better shot. With a bad guy I can't. AGAIN, The 10 ring is best, but the 8 ring works. Repeat as necessary. When you are fighting for your life, this is the realistic expectation for accuracy.
 
Justin, if you examine my last couple of replies, I believe I did address your post #60. I had a set of ideas about .22 carry and my PT-22. I tested them by posting here on the forum, admittedly in a fairly provocative way, in an attempt to generate some opinionated comments.
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Posts on an internet forum, no matter how informative, are not an objective test of anything. In order to test a defensive pistol, you need to run that gun, and run it hard, under situations other than idle self-directed plinking on a sunny Saturday afternoon. You also need to conduct objective testing. What are your draw times for the gun? What do your split times look like? How do those times compare to another pistol?

Furthermore, your initial post, wherein you lay out your initial thesis, is an example of begging the question. It's clear that you like the PT22 that you purchased, so you lay out the situations under which a .22 is adequate, and from there declare that the .22 is clearly the best choice for a carry gun while dismissing the many situations under which such a gun would be a poor choice.
 
*The terminal performance of a small caliber bullet is different form that of larger calibers. Smaller, lighter bullets are more prone to deflection inside the body and this deflection can cause a small caliber bullet to be as effective as a larger caliber bullet if the bullet is properly placed.
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.22 bullets are constructed of lead. They generally have a round nose contour even if they're hollowpoint. When they strike bone at a shallow angle they can deflect or skid against the bone (like a car would ride against a guardrail on a curve). They don't bounce around inside the torso like a rubber ball. What kinds of bones will it encounter in the torso? Rib, spinal and shoulder bones along the periphery of torso.

.22 bullets poke small holes. Small holes don't bleed as profusely as big holes. This is why small caliber handgun bullets aren't as effective in quickly stopping an attacker as larger caliber bullets.

For mouseguns, like a Beretta 21A Bobcat, I suggest CCI's SGB (Small Game Bullet) cartridge. It has a flat nose that is more efficient in crushing tissue as it penetrates. Hollowpoint bullets don't expand when fired from mouseguns - including CCI Stingers. The round nose contour of most hollowpoint .22 bullets allows tissues to stretch and "flow" around the bullet rather than being crushed outright. .38 Special LRN bullets earned their poor reputation for the same exact reason.
 
Folks, I really do not believe anybody in this thread disputes "Shot placement is King". Many/most agree that you cannot count on range day to predict outcomes under severe stress, and that handguns are not centerfire rifles, and that handguns very rarely deliver one shot kills in sudden 'force-on-force' encounters, two legs or four legs.
(even though most anything that goes bang can be, under many/most circumstances, a worthy deterrent... it sure beats a loud shout for help, or a cell phone whip antenna)
Many here (self included) would advocate the use of high round count practice with rimfires as a valuable aid in improving shooting skills that can carry over well to similarly configured centerfire handguns.

An ever constant CCW theme is "ease of carry" combined with "comforting feel".
David E makes good points on that. "Comforting feelings" are only comforting so long as the need is not real. You don't get any do-overs if/when it gets real, no matter how comforting the feeling was when you did not really need it anyway. You don't get to "un-do", once you pull that gun either, any caliber.

My prior advice to OP was not as smart-ass as OP may have taken it. Carrying a gun is just one small part of a much larger picture, and you best know real well what goes with, and consider all that very carefully (morally, legally, ethically, responsibly) before you commit. Once you pull and fire that gun, commitment is ancient history; now comes the rest. Self defense begins with awareness and educated decisions, not caliber.

Ultimately it's really about threat assessment, and lifestyle choices, and being wiling to pay the price for your own decisions, win, lose, or draw.

I am myself willing to settle for less. 380 acp for casual carry and "comforting feelings", but not in a 7-shot derringer for other than bug or extremely limited circumstance. I would say same of my 22 WMRs. But I do that being real well aware of the real dull lifestyle I choose to lead, and the risks I am willing to take vs. a variety of other considerations; not everybody should be me. We do have others, and I will be wearing 38+p/357/9mm if I choose to go places I ought worry more about; I can put up with the carry discomfort easily enough for the sizeable margin in "comforting feeling" when it comes to that.

On that note, I would urge OP (other than giving much sincere consideration to all other than just caliber), to forego the pleasant carry qualities and comfortable feelings of 380 7-shot derringer autoloaders, and get some rounds downrange with a full size (or at least larger) gun with a bit more punch. There are lots of good snubbies these days that can throw 38+p or better, if you practice with them enough to throw them well, and they are not that difficult to CCW in 95% of whatever circumstances. Same can be said of the compact 9s, but truth be known, they are harder to shoot really well than same size 380s, so try before you buy.

PS
bad boyz, bad boyz..
don't worry about the smart ones, they will doody their diapers and run at the sound, if not the sight alone (but always shoot for COM, or just don't shoot)
it's the stupid ones you have to watch out for, they will just keep coming
hit 'em with the biggest caliber you can hit with, and keep hitting until they stop coming (then stop, but stay alert)
just be damn sure you know the good guys from the bad guys
pity that 50 BMG doesn't CCW well, but that's how it is
it's all compromise
know what it is you are compromising on, and why
 
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I haven't read the whole thread, so if I'm being redundant, well, now you know why :evil:

My first suggestion would be to spend some time in the S&T section, and become familiar with situational awareness, avoidance, and the other "soft skills" of personal protection. The best gunfight is the one you never have to be in.

There are guns that are not much bigger, but in a more reliable and effective round. The Ruger LCP, Taurus TCP, and Kel-Tec P3AT come to mind. You're right that sometimes the presence of a gun is a deterrent, and that, in some situations, may be enough to get you home alive. When you present your firearm, wouldn't you want the aggressor to be looking down the biggest possible hole? There's something to be said for the difference between less than 1/4 of an inch, and almost half an inch in diameter.

I think a lot of folks have already discussed the advantages of stopping power, and the greater effectiveness and reliability of .380, 9mm, and the like, so I won't go into that too much.

I do wish there were a true pocket 9mm, as it appears to me that .380 ammo is even more expensive and I like to do a lot of shooting/training. My current plan is to do most regular training-target shooting with my .22 but also to acquire a pocket .380 for critical training and carry, in the near future.
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You mentioned that the .22 lets you practice a lot more than a center-fire gun. By all means, keep the .22, and use it at the range to hone your skills. By having a small gun like that, you'll be better prepared when/if you move into something a little bigger. One of the moderators, (Sam1911?) has a sig-line that includes the progression: Mindset-Skillset-Toolset. THR is a great place to learn about the mindset* side of things, and while not the best choice for a defensive tool, your .22 would be a good way to develop the skill-sets needed for staying safe.

As far as skillset goes, I'd look into some of your local ranges, and see if any offer any kind of "fun-steel" or "steel challenge" competition where you could use a .22. When you start shooting matches, its amazing the kind of things you can learn from people. They may also offer some sort of training class, that may be a great step for you to take.

This is something I posted in a different thread a while ago, but I think it still applies, and is a good potential starting place :
Since .22 ammo is less expensive than most rounds, you should be able to get a good deal of practice in.

If it was me, I would strive to become proficient in:
-clearing manfunctions
-point shooting/indexing/instinctive/ whatever you want to call fast close range shooting
-shooting smaller targets at a longer than average distance (greater than 25 yards)
- engaging multiple targets.
-engaging multiple targets at varying distances.
-reloading (Especially since the Walther has that [to me] funky mag release in the trigger guard)
-clearing malfunctions.

Your own list of skills that need work may be different, but that is what I feel is important when talking about using a .22 in a gunfight.
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Hope this helps, and welcome to the High Road,

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
Dagnabbit!

I was gonna stay out of this, but some PMs dictate otherwise.

The Reality:

NO Recoil Orders.
Not only have I personally been on NRO, so have many folks over the years I have personally dealt with.

I don't care if one is in their twenties and full of urine and vinegar, in the blink of an eye one can find themselves in a situation, where NRO are issued by Physician's Orders.

All it takes is being in a car wreck, or slipping off a icy porch, or going down in a icy parking lot, or falling off a ladder or...

I was raised and mentored by some very interesting folks. A .22 rim-fire was a serious tool, for many uses, beside farm and property and hunting.
Everyone should have a .22 rim-fire for conceal carry, and a rifle for home use, as one never knows when they will be down and under NRO.

One does not have to be older with rheumatoid arthritis, or dealing with neck, shoulder, back pain,...etc, and recouping from surgeries and post op difficulties, in the blink of an eye...

This is why I do have a Marlin 60, and since I no longer have, will again have a Ruger MK II standard model, and Beretta 21A in .22 lr.

Then again I come up as I did, before Internet, and now older.

Reality trumps Internet.

Steve
 
coolluke01 said:
I was thinking about what I've shot with .22's. I've shot crows that have flown away, squirrels that jump from tree to tree and hang on to branches after they have been hit, my moms dresser when I was 10. Ahem, cough, cough. Don't tell her I don't think she ever knew. When you think about the kill zone on a squirrel compared to the total area, the kill zone is almost 1/2 of the target and those buggers still keep going. Because of the damage a .22 will do to the surrounding area I figured that a hit in half of the body would result in immediate incapacitation if not death...
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With what kind of ammo? I assume, for instance it wasn't CCI hi-velocity stuff (or its equivalent) or the squirrel doesn't "jump."

-Cheers
 
I've always used hollow points. It depends what I can find but they are usually right around the 1300-1500 range.
 
sm
Well said re: "NRO"... but whatever PMs aside (not mine), I did not notice that particular thread drift here
No shortage of members here who do not hesitate to recommend 22 WMR or 22 LR for such circumstances.. the OP simply did not suggest such was the case here, that's all

The right tool for the right job, within shooter's capabilities (even if capabilities yet to be known) is how most of us took this thread, that's all.

respects

PS
Personal opinion only, of course, but for full size, it's tough to beat a "k-17" for NRO in 22LR, including Ruger MKs, but for a pocket pistola, the Beretta's are real tough to beat, quality guns, and I think they still mebbe (??) make some model with tip up barrel, if racking the little ones should happen to be at issue.. got a tip up Beretta 25acp myself... me could be you/them/whoever, all but for the grace of, and dumb luck, you know)
 
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There are effectively two ways to "stop" a human machine from functioning. Depriving the muscles the of oxygenated blood they need to contract (which is what causes motion), and depriving the muscles of the signals tell them to contract. Puncturing holes in the body will cause blood loss and eventually the muscles will stop functioning. However, at any moment, there is already enough oxygenated blood in the blood vessels, brain, and limbs to keep the muscles moving for about 30+ seconds. The heart is just a pump, and the lungs just put O2 into the blood. If the blood in the BGs arm is already there and has O2 in it, puncturing the heart or lungs does not remove that O2, it just keeps it from getting more. But that arm can still move until the O2 is gone.

The other way is to stop the signals telling the arm to move. Shooting someone is just a series of messages from the brain. The signal starts in the brain, travels through the spine and out to the nerves in the arm and finger. The arm moves up to level the gun, and the finger contracts on the trigger.

If those signals do not get to the arm or finger, the bad guy will not shoot. Therefore, the only real way to stop a human machine right now is to damage the Central Nervous System. That is was controls the signals going to the arm and finger. A human can still function with blood loss until all the O2 is gone. A human limb will not do anything at all if the nerve signal is not getting there.

With all of that in mind, trying to puncturing the CNS should be the top priority. You need a round that will reliably get through the subjects clothing, skin, fat, rib cage, and organs in order to reach the spine. Typically a .22lr will not do that. With a round like 9mm, .40SW, .38 etc, they will. That is why penetration is key. The blood loss from poking holes in a person is a side benefit, a fallback plan if you will. If your rounds did not hit the CNS, at least you can rely on the slower effect of blood loss to eventually stop the BG from moving in a threatening manner.

But putting as many rounds as possible center mass, in the hope that one of them will damage the spine is the best way to "turn off" the human machine. Pick a round that will reliably penetrate that far into a person, and will be capable of damaging the CNS nerves. Then put as many of them as you can in the area of the spine.

It's always going to be a balance. Do you get a lot of shots with .22lr? Yes. That's good. Will they reliable get far enough in to damage the spine AND produce a decent amount of blood loss if you miss the spine? No. That's bad.

IMO, will a .45ACP produce enough blood loss? Yes. Will a .45ACP penetrate far enough to damage the spine? Yes. Those are both good. Do you get enough rounds to fire a lot of them into the BG? Not really (depending on gun choice). Does the recoil of the round make it more difficult to keep putting rounds near the spine? Yes. Also not good. Those two reason are why I don't use .45ACP

9mm will do all of the above. It will penetrate far enough, create a decent sized hole for blood loss, it is easy to control for followup shots, and you get a lot more chances to hit the spine though having more rounds to fire.
 
If a .22 caliber non-expanding bullet passes through an artery or major organ it will render far less damage than a .45 caliber expanding bullet through precisely the same place. I think everyone realizes that shot effectiveness is about both shot placement and damaging power of the round. Simply put, all else being equal, a larger caliber expanding bullet will cause more damage... faster bleed-out. So I'm not betting my life on a .22LR unless that's all I have at hand. God forbid the need ever arises but no matter what caliber or bullet type I use I'll always try to aim effectively. All else being equal I'm very happy with a 13+1 round .45 ACP or 17+1 round 9mm Luger. I'll not intentionally limit myself to .22LR but would sure as heck use it if that's what I had in hand.
 
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wow.. still not dead yet..

the famous FBI shootout with some BGs who were known to carry shotguns and carbines (and known not hesitant to shoot it out), whilst themselves bringing no more than one shotgun and no carbines... the agents brought nothing other than the one 12ga except EDC service handguns with them (and won anyway, due to the courage and ability of the agents, but not without deadly cost)

That all ought be better remembered, not as a handgun caliber woobie war, nor as a reason/excuse for inventing the 10mm, but as maybe a turning point in tactical response SWAT teams, who carry service sidearms for backup, not primary.

If there is one thing in all that pertinent to the discussion in this thread, it is surely not woobie caliber vs woobie caliber, nor is it rimfire for EDC vs. centerfiire for EDC.
 
I'll just add my input that when shot by a large caliber (9mm and up) it feels like a hard punch and has a lot of mental "stopping power" where you know you're shot and give up a lot faster. .22 has been described that it feels like a deep stabbing wound but that's it. Yes it can kill and can stop with one shot but it has low penetration, less tissue disruption, and less of mental effect.

I'm not completely against carrying a .22 as it has it's place in carry but why get something less effective? There are .380s out there that are just slightly bigger like the Micro Desert Eagle, that gun is smaller than even the Ruger LCP. I'll also like to mention the reliability of .22 LR as well, It kinda sucks.
 
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history has shown that small 25 ACP firearms and even .22 shorts to had been quite popular amongst the masses in prior decades............i guess without the various gun rags, shooting school experts, and internet information available back in teh dark ages, people still made choices and actually survived.

technology has advanced. old school is out and new school is suposedly in.

carry what you like for whatever reasons you like. There are many folks who depend on the .22. Be it due to age, physical problems, or money problems.

Many of them also may not be certified gun enthusiasts like many of us. Most likely, the vast majority of gun owners "might" go the the range once a year and a box of shells will last a lifetime. I'm not saying its wrong or right but that is just the way it is.

Others may be very into guns and make the .22 their choice.........so be it.

I carry a .38. That does not make me wrong or right. It just happens to fit my perceived needs and abilities.

I do not care what others carry as I have not walked a mile in their shoes. the only person I have to please is myself.
 
a woobie caliber is pretty much the same as a woobie blanket
(security blanket, and/or pacifier, or stuffed toy, of the sort babies will not go to sleep without... "woobies")

pretty much same as any "magic" gun or "magic" caliber
 
"history has shown that small 25 ACP firearms and even .22 shorts to had been quite popular amongst the masses in prior decades............i guess without the various gun rags, shooting school experts, and internet information available back in teh dark ages, people still made choices and actually survived."

And some of them actually didn't survive. You don't hear their side of the shootout because they're dead. Popularity proves nothing. I mean really, Ford Pintos were popular and so were Ford Mavericks, but that doesn't equate with them being the best choice or even viable alternatives. The same goes for guns.

Here's the thing, prior to the invention of antibiotics (the word was introduced in 1942), the fear of being gut shot and dying a painful slow death put the fear of God into a lot of people. A small caliber would poke holes in the intestine pretty easily and made small guns a threat.
 
the famous FBI shootout with some BGs who were known to carry shotguns and carbines (and known not hesitant to shoot it out), whilst themselves bringing no more than one shotgun and no carbines... the agents brought nothing other than the one 12ga except EDC service handguns with them (and won anyway, due to the courage and ability of the agents, but not without deadly cost)
Click to expand...

There were other agents in other cars that were armed with MP5 SMGs and who were assigned to the rolling stakeout. The shootout was over by the time they arrived on scene.
 
To the point, can a 22LR be an effective defense tool? Sure anything that goes bang can detur a potential attacker. However if you were faced with a determined attacker that 22 might just piss him off. Skip the girly rounds (22, 25, 32, 380) and get a 9mm, 40 or 45, all proven badguy killers. A friend of mine who has survived two attacks (both attackers are dead) swears by his 357 Magnum, he never wanted to give them a chance to try that on someone else, and dead men cannot sue you.
 
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